Just looking for a somewhat qualified ruling on a question I have;
How does Retraining Rogue to Unchained Rogue work in society? I am aware that there was a free retrain period but I clearly long-missed that boat.
Is it:
1) Unchained Rogue is an archetype of Rogue?
2) Separate classes, but Rogue can be retrained directly to Unchained Rogue(provided all levels are done in one block)?
3) Separate classes, but due to the multiclassing restriction a buffer class is required(retrain Rogue X -> bard X-1, Rogue 1 -> URogue 1, bard X-1 -> URogue X-1)
I haven't been able to find official rulings and am quite curious.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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1. No, unchained is not an archetype of rogue
This has been asked multiple times, but there's no official answer.
2 and 3: RAW, you are required to train one level at a time, at the cost of 5pp + gold per level, to another class, and then retrain those classes to unchained rogue at the cost of 5pp + gold per level.
However, that RAW is very likely not the RAI. There's no reason why you should need to pay DOUBLE for training from Rogue to uRogue compared to the cost of training rogue to Another class.
Also, the rules of retraining contradict themselves a bit. On one hand, the rules say:
You can retrain only one thing at a time; you must complete or abandon a particular training goal before starting another one. Abandoning unfinished training means you lose all progress toward that training’s goal and all costs associated with that training.
which suggests that you can't retrain Rogue into uRogue -> you'd be a rogue 2 / uRogue 1 at that point, which isn't legal, but a bit later in the text:
When retraining multiple character options (class features, feats, classes, etc.) in one continuous period, all of the new selections are made at the end of that period in an order decided by the player. If this period is interrupted for any reason all choices must be made immediately. In this way players can retrain class features and their prerequisites at the same time.
which suggests you probably should be able to retrain directly from Rogue 3 into uRogue 3.
If you play locally in a particular lodge, ask your local VO's for their opinion - should you need to pay just once the cost of retraining from rogue to uRogue or should you pay it twice, hopefully they are reasonable.
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You can directly retrain from Core to Unchained rogue.
When retraining multiple character options (class features, feats, classes, etc.) in one continuous period, all of the new selections are made at the end of that period in an order decided by the player. If this period is interrupted for any reason all choices must be made immediately. In this way players can retrain class features and their prerequisites at the same time.
This text says that when retraining multiple options, you make the selections *after* the entire retraining period ends. Prerequisites, considerations, and other restrictions don't come into play until then. The restriction that a character cannot have a combination of rogue and unchained rogue levels does not come into play until *after* you make the decision to swap out all your rogue levels. The bold text explicitly points out this rule exists to prevent awkward situations arising from prerequisites and other considerations. No need for placeholders.
If it's legal to retrain Combat Expertise/Improved Grapple/Greater Grapple to Dirty Fighting/Improved Trip/Greater Trip in a single aggregate retraining period, then it should be legal to directly retrain 3 rogue levels to 3 unchained rogue levels.
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Cyrad, that's a good clause to remember but it's only a part of the question.
There is definitely a way to retrain from rogue to Unchained rogue (at which point you can change class feature choices and the like). The question is: what's the shortest path to do so? If you are switching archetypes, you have to "untrain" all your archetype features, then spend more time (and prestige) retraining to the new archetype. Unchained Rogue has been confirmed to not be an archetype of Rogue, but the question that has not been directly answered by a designer (as far as I know) is "is Unchained Rogue a separate class from Rogue?" That's why this debate pops up from time to time. If they are the same class, then you would have to train out of Rogue to something else, then train back to Unchained Rogue.
From a logical standpoint it makes no sense for the two to be considered the same class if they are not archetypes of each other. And the published text of Unchained supports the reading that they are separate classes. Here's a sample of what the Unchained book says about the Unchained classes:
These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively). Some feats, rage powers, rogue talents, and other rules might not work with the unchained classes, and such rules should be reviewed before being used with the new versions. Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.
The language strongly implies that the Unchained classes are different from the base classes, with text such as: "these classes can be used alongside their original counterparts."
I agree with Tommi. Ask your local VO, but I would allow direct retraining. (Though as BNW and the quoted text point out, you have to be able to retrain ALL your levels in one session since you can't have levels in both.)
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Kevin, I feel the point of my above post was overlooked. For determining the shortest path to retraining core rogue levels, it is irrelevant whether or not the core rogue and unchained rogue are the same class. The retraining rules explicitly have a provision so you don't need "buffers" when retraining multiple options that have prerequisites or other restrictions with each other. Even if the rogues were the same class, you can still directly swap each rogue level for an unchained rogue level.
Thus, the shortest path to retraining X core rogue levels to X unchained rogue levels is paying the cost of retraining X class levels, provided you retrain all your core rogue levels in one continuous period.
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... it is irrelevant whether or not the core rogue and unchained rogue are the same class....Even if the rogues were the same class, you can still directly swap each rogue level for an unchained rogue level...
It is quite relevant. You can't retrain a class into itself.
Say I'm an 11th level oracle. And I decide I made nothing but terrible choices when I hit 11th level. Poor choice of revelation and none of the spells are useful. Normally retraining all that would take:
5 days (revelation) + 6 days (3rd level spell) + 8 days (4th level spell) + 10 days (5th level spell) = 29 days
I don't want to spend all those days (and prestige). But I cannot retrain my oracle level directly into an oracle level (which would let me rechoose all those options for only 5 days total).
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately select a different class, add a level in that class, and gain all the benefits of that new class level.
I'm still of the opinion that Unchained Rogue is a different class than the Core Rogue. But I haven't seen an explicit developer clarification.
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... it is irrelevant whether or not the core rogue and unchained rogue are the same class....Even if the rogues were the same class, you can still directly swap each rogue level for an unchained rogue level...It is quite relevant. You can't retrain a class into itself.
By that argument, you cannot retrain a core rogue into an unchained rogue at all, which is not true.
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Since PFS1 is not going to receive any further attention or answers from Campaign Leadership, my advice to the OP is to find their local Venture Captain and come up with a goodwill plan to help this character become playable and enjoyable while PFS1 games are still able to be found.
Like, if this question came up years ago, I would probably be more of the opinion that retraining couldn't be done and that the PC would be "stuck". I certainly hamstrung a few characters of mine with similar logic. But now? When there is no real potential for abuse and it's just so someone can enjoy playing their character again? I say go for it.