Is it just me, or does the rulebook offer only bare-bones support for this plane and its creatures.
I was sure you could use See Invisibility to detect ethereal creatures, but I seem to misremember.
I can't find any general rule about ethereal creatures and force damage either. Didn't Magic Missile specifically state it could shoot ethereal creatures (if you could target them)?
I'm asking 'cause I have a scenario idea with an NPC friend whose spirit/consciousness/ghost/whatever leaves the body at night to start fires - while the body dreams about arson, its spirit actually commits the deed.
But PF2 seems strangely bereft of the basic tools low-level characters used to have in actually detecting this phenomenon (such as by guarding the NPC while sleeping).
Suggestions on how to handle this in a PF2-legit manner would be much appreciated (such as "choose an NN creature instead, or the OO spell, or the PP phenomenon...")
Pretty sure the reason for the limited coverage of the ethereal plane and its denizens is that all the ways for a PC to access it are marked as uncommon (though since one is a ki spell, it's not entirely outside of player access without special permission)
That aside, everything you need to know is mentioned in the relevant places: the ethereal jaunt spell, which all things that let you go to the ethereal plane for more than the briefest moment reference for their functionality, and places like wall of force and blink repeating the mentioning of how force effects originating from the material plane can still interact with the ethereal plane.
And I am expecting that player characters not having low-level ways to interact with ethereal stuff is deliberate, like how the plane shift spell has been made uncommon.
Well the Oracle has a class feat that lets them see onto the ethereal plane at will, though I can't figure out why they would take this if they didn't know they would be dealing with Ethereal threats because it doesn't seem to have any benefits to the material plane. (Unless it lets you see through walls and tell what is on the other side of a door, in which case it is AMAZING, but I'm not sure that actually works.)
However, ghosts are not actually connected to the ethereal plane in pathfinder per James Jacob, unlike early D&D. "For the most part, you need to go to the Ethereal Plane to fight creatures there. Pathfinder has deliberately pulled away from the idea that monsters can exist on both the Material and Ethereal Plane at the same time—ghosts, in particular, have NO connection to the Ethereal Plane at all."
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o675?Ethereal-creatures-incorporeal-or-not
So you're homebrewing whatever this arsonist creature is, which is fine.
While there are creatures that can move between the ethereal and material planes at will, they can't affect anything on the material plane without manifesting there. (You can be affected by force or abjuration effects from the material plane while on the ethereal plane, but the reverse isn't true.) So whatever this thing is will need to actually appear on the material plane to start fires, so the PCs just need to be there when it happens.
thenobledrake wrote: Pretty sure the reason for the limited coverage of the ethereal plane and its denizens is that all the ways for a PC to access it are marked as uncommon (though since one is a ki spell, it's not entirely outside of player access without special permission) What I guess I am asking is what is your suggestion to replace the Ethereal Plane for a low-level "out of body" experience.
Not being able to suggest to my party "just prepare See Invisible" kind of makes me wonder how I am supposed to clue them into the dreaming arsonist soul idea...
Captain Morgan wrote:
However, ghosts are not actually connected to the ethereal plane in pathfinder per James Jacob, unlike early D&D. "For the most part, you need to go to the Ethereal Plane to fight creatures there. Pathfinder has deliberately pulled away from the idea that monsters can exist on both the Material and Ethereal Plane at the same time—ghosts, in particular, have NO connection to the Ethereal Plane at all."
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o675?Ethereal-creatures-incorporeal-or-not
So you're homebrewing whatever this arsonist creature is, which is fine.
While there are creatures that can move between the ethereal and material planes at will, they can't affect anything on the material plane without manifesting there. (You can be affected by force or abjuration effects from the material plane while on the ethereal plane, but the reverse isn't true.) So whatever this thing is will need to actually appear on the material plane to start fires, so the PCs just need to be there when it happens.
Thank you. Incorporeal works, of course.
But scanningthe rules I didn't find an immediate answer to: how do you detect an incorporeal being? Maybe I didn't find anything because it's a non-issue; that my assumption incorporeal beings are invisible simply isn't true?
I assume you don't have to be (un)dead to be incorporeal. I furthermore assume it's fine for my incorporeal being to have some kind of ability to manifest in the physical world, maybe through possessing a hapless stable boy or farm wife (in order to be able to set fires).
Zapp wrote: Captain Morgan wrote:
However, ghosts are not actually connected to the ethereal plane in pathfinder per James Jacob, unlike early D&D. "For the most part, you need to go to the Ethereal Plane to fight creatures there. Pathfinder has deliberately pulled away from the idea that monsters can exist on both the Material and Ethereal Plane at the same time—ghosts, in particular, have NO connection to the Ethereal Plane at all."
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o675?Ethereal-creatures-incorporeal-or-not
So you're homebrewing whatever this arsonist creature is, which is fine.
While there are creatures that can move between the ethereal and material planes at will, they can't affect anything on the material plane without manifesting there. (You can be affected by force or abjuration effects from the material plane while on the ethereal plane, but the reverse isn't true.) So whatever this thing is will need to actually appear on the material plane to start fires, so the PCs just need to be there when it happens.
Thank you. Incorporeal works, of course.
But scanningthe rules I didn't find an immediate answer to: how do you detect an incorporeal being? Maybe I didn't find anything because it's a non-issue; that my assumption incorporeal beings are invisible simply isn't true?
I assume you don't have to be (un)dead to be incorporeal. I furthermore assume it's fine for my incorporeal being to have some kind of ability to manifest in the physical world, maybe through possessing a hapless stable boy or farm wife (in order to be able to set fires). No, being incorporeal doesn't make you invisible. Just look in the bestiary-- none of the ghosts or shadows have natural invisibility.
Poltergeists are, by contrast, naturally invisible until they use their Frighten ability.
A ghost mage, as an example, is visible but incorporeal and can start fires just fine, assuming it had a fire spell as one of its innate spells.
Being incorporeal doesn't require you to "manifest" in the physical world. You just are.
"An incorporeal creature or object has no physical form. It can pass through solid objects, including walls. When inside an object, an incorporeal creature can’t perceive, attack, or interact with anything outside the object, and if it starts its turn in an object, it is slowed 1. Corporeal creatures can pass through an incorporeal creature, but they can’t end their movement in its space. An incorporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against physical creatures or objects—only against incorporeal ones—unless those objects have the ghost touch property rune. Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects. Incorporeal creatures usually have immunity to effects or conditions that require a physical body, like disease, poison, and precision damage. They usually have resistance against all damage (except force damage and damage from Strikes with the ghost touch property rune), with double the resistance against non-magical damage."
That's what being incorporeal does, nothing more, nothing less.
As to possession, you can give a creature that ability if you want. I don't think there currently are any published creatures that have it as an innate ability, but there is a 7th level possession spell and a possession trait for other abilities that may be created.
Captain Morgan wrote: No, being incorporeal doesn't make you invisible. Just look in the bestiary-- none of the ghosts or shadows have natural invisibility.
Poltergeists are, by contrast, naturally invisible until they use their Frighten ability.
A ghost mage, as an example, is visible but incorporeal and can start fires just fine, assuming it had a fire spell as one of its innate spells.
Being incorporeal doesn't require you to "manifest" in the physical world. You just are.
"An incorporeal creature or object has no physical form. It can pass through solid objects, including walls. When inside an object, an incorporeal creature can’t perceive, attack, or interact with anything outside the object, and if it starts its turn in an object, it is slowed 1. Corporeal creatures can pass through an incorporeal creature, but they can’t end their movement in its space. An incorporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against physical creatures or objects—only against incorporeal ones—unless those objects have the ghost touch property rune. Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects. Incorporeal creatures usually have immunity to effects or conditions that require a physical body, like disease, poison, and precision damage. They usually have resistance against all damage (except force damage and damage from Strikes with the ghost touch property rune), with double the resistance against non-magical damage."
That's what being incorporeal does, nothing more, nothing less.
As to possession, you can give a creature that ability if you want. I don't think there currently are any published creatures that have it as an innate ability, but there is a 7th level possession spell and a possession trait for other abilities that may be created.
Okay, so this not-undead being can project its "soul" (essence, whatever) as a possibly-visible incorporeal... thing (that See Invis would work against if merely invisible).
It could manipulate items using mage hand or poltergeist-style, or it could possess living beings to do it.
While outside the (original) body, it would have some damage resistance, though not to force et al. But of course the point is that it can be confronted when it wakes up in the morning; my point wasn't necessarily create a dream form with "combat capacity".
Is the NPC aware of what is happening and in control of the spirit? Or is this creature just hiding in the friendly NPC during the day? It is important distinction for the story and the sort of abilities you give it.
I think what you're talking about seems more relevant to the astral plane and dimension of dreams, by the way.
Captain Morgan wrote: Is the NPC aware of what is happening and in control of the spirit? Or is this creature just hiding in the friendly NPC during the day? It is important distinction for the story and the sort of abilities you give it.
I think what you're talking about seems more relevant to the astral plane and dimension of dreams, by the way.
Thank you for engaging.
Here's the full story :-)
A mischievous genie (technically a fledgling efreeti, except more playful and curious than "hateful and merciless") had displeased its master and was imprisoned in an Everburning Torch. Somehow this torch found itself on the Material Plane, and was looted by the heroes. It has a slight malfunction whereby its flame spits and sputters, and on occasion a few mephits "fall out".
This prompts the PCs to investigate, and per the Trick Magic Item rules, an Everburning Torch can be investigated with any tradition skill since the object doesn't list any specific ones. By succeeding, they open a portal "into" the flame, which appears as a stone tower in the pocket dimension. They run away from the mephits, into the tower and battle a couple of "prison guard" elementals to find a "living flame" caged at the top floor of the lighthouse style tower (the flame providing the flame of the Everburning Torch). The imprisoned flame calls itself Manara (Arabic for "beacon", by the way), truthfully tells the tale of its imprisonment, and entreats them to help it escape by allowing it to possess a body in "the real life".
Once the heroes understand an already-dead (but fresh) body suffices, and thus that they don't have to actively murder someone (either physically or spiritually), they agree to this. I ask them what sort of person they would ideally "put" Manara "in". The PC with Thieves Guild connections manages to "acquire" a body, specifies "Halle Berry as Storm" as the visual appearance, I roll a random die to see how close to this goal they get and get a "pretty close" result.
So now Manara is "alive", and have joined them in partying and generally experiencing life in Sandpoint. It - or rather, she - is annoyed at the bad weather (compared to the City of Brass, at least), but generally grateful for being let out. The heroes note she's healed by fire damage rather than positive "damage", handles herself in a fight courtesy of wielding her torch (she has the stats of a living wildfire, Bestiary page 148), and each night since she joined them, there's been a fire in the town...
This is because while Manara isn't actively evil, and sincerely doesn't want to hurt anyone, she/it is also something of a firebug.
Every night while the heroes sleep, Manara dreams / her spirit = its "essence", escape the body to make a fire happen.
My goal with this is of course to set up a moral quandary: what to do with a friend who does bad things, but is still not actively malign?
Once the heroes start to suspect Manara, there needs to be clues in order for us to reach this end state.
* should they choose to wake her up, she's uncontactable for a good hour (while her essence is out doing hijinks the body is, well, just a body)
There needs to be be some way they can watch her (and her PC boyfriend) sleeping, detect her essence departing her body, that does not require high level abilities. Remember, my original assumption was that a simple See Invisibility would be enough (there's a Cleric in the party).
Even if they fail to follow the "essence" to catch it "in the act", I want them to learn 1) it does exist, and 2) sets fires without Manara consciously remembering it (at least she professes innocence; she does remember dreaming, but don't want to entertain the possibility they're "true dreams" since she doesn't want to go back to prison).
Will the heroes banish her (from the city / back into her prison torch)? "Kill" her? Rehabilitate her (good luck)? I'm looking forward to their decision!
Just to spice up this moral quandary, I'm running an xp for gold campaign, and Manara reveals herself to be something of a party animal, shaking gemstones out of her torch, effectively giving them xp just for carousing! That is, by stopping her, they're also cutting off the "free xp" *evil smiley*
Also, the "essence" obviously needs some way to interact with the physical world (making an oil lamp fall over; grabbing a torch, etc), ideally without undead connotations since we're talking about an elemental essence and not a living (or dead) person's soul.
All PF2-legit approaches welcome! :-)
OK, an elemental spirit changes things. We aren't talking about something that posseses people, as it is tied to material essence rather than spiritual or mental. Elemental spirits can animate material objects-- most famously, golems. So that gives us a few options to consider.
1) Manara projects out a spirit which can possess statues or other appropriately golem like vessals and turn them into fire starting constructs. Fun, and gives her a neat Weeping Angels style drama, but ultimately this sounds like a stone spirit, not a fire spirit.
2) Manara can take over existing fires and make them burn out of control. Perhaps even turning them into fire elementals which attack the surroundings.
3) To combine the above two, perhaps she can also ignite and animate flammable materials. A scarecrow runs amok in the fields. The figurehead on the mast of a ship sets fire to the docks.
Using these ideas, the PCs will probably be suspicious of their elemental buddy even without her leaving a trail. But to further cement their suspicions, perhaps she can only travel by fire hopping. Perhaps the bedisde lantern ignites in the middle of the night, and she projects herself through its flickering light out the window and into a nearby street lamp, and she uses those to move about the city.
Perhaps her boyfriend notices the lamp is lit when he wakes up, or even gets a very hard perception check to wake up when it first flickers to life. To be more subtle, maybe he wakes up in the morning and might have the check to notice the lantern has run out of fuel as though it were left on over night.
Excellent. Why didn't I think of #2! Of course! The incorporeal essence makes any light or flame flare up when "possessed", becoming large enough to lick combustible materials nearby! And this also makes it possible to track the invisible essence, by noting how flames grow and shrink as it passes them by.
I guess they can still fight the essence if they must, rather than to wait for it to return back to "Halle's" body. I guess it's possible they think there are two entities here. But if they kill the "essence" they will learn that Halle will never wake up again.
Of course, fighting the essence is just plain harder, with its invisibility and incorporeal resistance*. Killing the body with the essence inside would have worked just as well. But if they must, they must. In both cases, any combat will (likely) end with the living wildfire's death fireball, conclusively terminating this particular storyline.
I think "Resistances all damage 5 (except force, ghost touch, or cold; double resistance vs. non-magical)" would be roughly appropriate. This is the Level 4 ghost's line at least. Note I replaced positive with cold.
Quote: Using these ideas, the PCs will probably be suspicious of their elemental buddy even without her leaving a trail. Absolutely, no question about it. Thanks!
Honestly, I'd maybe skip the incorporeal stuff. If she's hopping between fires or combustible material as her means of locomotion, that process can probably be instantaneous and she can only fight or be fought while she's animating something. Just give her the stats of whatever elemental (or level adjusted elemental) best suits your story needs.
You could make her a single boss level enemies that the party will have an intense fight with, or you could make her a lower level elemental who is dangerous because she can easily renew herself by leaping to a new fuel source. Capturing her this way involves figuring out how to isolate her from any fire or fuel.
You could have her exist as a free floating astral projection, but that feels much less evocative of her material essence tied to the plane of fire. That's a a mental or spiritual thing. Plus, having her as a free floating projection implies a more active decision making process, as though she had an evil spirit residing in her which could be exorcised. By contrast, having her just inhabit nearby fire and fuel isn't a conscious decision. It is just her nature taking effect. Fire burns, and fire spreads. It has a more tragic implication, IMO. Especially if your efreetis are less hateful and merciless.
All this is matters of taste, of course.
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