Wild Empathy and other mechanics enabling additional uses for actions + alternate skills for actions

[Lavabeing]

Hi everyone,

I've looked through the forum to find a discussion about this interaction but have yet to find one.

I'm curious how everyone rules feats that enable additional uses for actions (like wild Empathy allowing a diplomacy check to use "make an impression" actions against animals) interact with feats that allow alternate skills to be used for actions ("impressive performance" allows performance check when attempting a "make an impression" action).

Since wild empathy specifies a diplomacy check to "make an impression" against animals, does it prevent alternate skill checks when taking this action? Or, should the diplomacy check reference be ignored and only treated as a reminder of what kind of check is the default?

[Samurai]

I think each individual case would need the GM's approval. For the one you presented, I'd say "Sure your song can certainly attract and "make an impression" on animals, but they wouldn't necessarily be able to understand what you want without expressing it through Wild Empathy (which in my mind is a Diplomacy check making animal noises, scratching the dirt, and making animalistic displays)."

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah, I mean, Snake Charmers are a thing, so I'd allow it.

[Lavabeing]

Samurai wrote:

I think each individual case would need the GM's approval. For the one you presented, I'd say "Sure your song can certainly attract and "make an impression" on animals, but they wouldn't necessarily be able to understand what you want without expressing it through Wild Empathy (which in my mind is a Diplomacy check making animal noises, scratching the dirt, and making animalistic displays)."

I was thinking along the lines of snow white making friends of animals through song (the "make impression" action). I would understand a GM still requiring diplomacy to make the simple requests.

[ofMars]

So I was looking at wild empathy while building a Ranger for my wife, and she has a a higher WIS than CHA. All Druids and most Rangers are likely to have a higher WIS modifier than CHA, so having a class feature that lets them use a CHA skill against certain targets seems kind of, um, iffy, since they have to also invest in that skill to make the ability usable at all on top of having a modifier that makes it worth it.

In PF1, Wild Empathy still worked off of charisma and functioned as diplomacy, but it didn't actually require any ranks in diplomacy to use. I think it would be better if instead of allowing you to use Diplomacy on animals, it instead allowed you to Make an Impression on animals using a Nature check, or if it absolutely needs to be tied to CHA, then have the ability give you proficiency in just the animal cases.

[Captain Morgan]

ofMars wrote:

So I was looking at wild empathy while building a Ranger for my wife, and she has a a higher WIS than CHA. All Druids and most Rangers are likely to have a higher WIS modifier than CHA, so having a class feature that lets them use a CHA skill against certain targets seems kind of, um, iffy, since they have to also invest in that skill to make the ability usable at all on top of having a modifier that makes it worth it.

In PF1, Wild Empathy still worked off of charisma and functioned as diplomacy, but it didn't actually require any ranks in diplomacy to use. I think it would be better if instead of allowing you to use Diplomacy on animals, it instead allowed you to Make an Impression on animals using a Nature check, or if it absolutely needs to be tied to CHA, then have the ability give you proficiency in just the animal cases.

I feel like it is a lot cheaper to get a decent diplomacy score now though, and to an extent cheaper to get charisma too.

[ofMars]

Captain Morgan wrote:

ofMars wrote:

So I was looking at wild empathy while building a Ranger for my wife, and she has a a higher WIS than CHA. All Druids and most Rangers are likely to have a higher WIS modifier than CHA, so having a class feature that lets them use a CHA skill against certain targets seems kind of, um, iffy, since they have to also invest in that skill to make the ability usable at all on top of having a modifier that makes it worth it.

In PF1, Wild Empathy still worked off of charisma and functioned as diplomacy, but it didn't actually require any ranks in diplomacy to use. I think it would be better if instead of allowing you to use Diplomacy on animals, it instead allowed you to Make an Impression on animals using a Nature check, or if it absolutely needs to be tied to CHA, then have the ability give you proficiency in just the animal cases.

I feel like it is a lot cheaper to get a decent diplomacy score now though, and to an extent cheaper to get charisma too.

are you talking about the ability boosts every 5 levels? Remember, a +1 is way bigger than it used to be. A level 2 Ranger with a 10 CHA trained in Diplomacy has a +4. Succeeding an making an impression on a Guard Dog, a -1 creature, is a 55% (50% for a level 1 druid) chance. Goes down to 50 or lower for most level 1 animals. Leaf order Druids get diplomacy for free, but other than that, seems weird to require proficiency in a skill that doesn't come with the class to be able to use a class feat.