Hello All,
Two quick questions.
1: Are improved unarmed strikes still considered archaic?
2: Can a PC/NPC with improved unarmed strike elect to deal non-lethal damage instead of lethal?
I believe the answers are: yes to both
You are correct on both.
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I have seen it argued before that Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't actually give you the option to make your Unarmed Strikes lethal in the first place.
You have trained to make your unarmed attacks lethal and strike with kicks, head-butts, and similar attacks.
Benefit: Your unarmed attack damage increases to 1d6 at 4th level, 2d6 at 8th level, 3d6 at 12th level, 5d6 at 15th level, and 7d6 at 20th level. You threaten squares within your natural reach with your unarmed strikes even when you do not have a hand free for an unarmed strike. If you are immobilized, entangled, or unable to use both legs (or whatever appendages you have in place of legs, where appropriate), you lose the ability to make unarmed strikes without your hands. When making an unarmed strike without your hands, you can’t use such attacks for combat maneuvers or similar abilities—only to deal damage.
Normal: You don’t threaten any squares with unarmed attacks, and you must have a hand free to make an unarmed attack.
Note that nowhere in the "Benefit" section does it state that your Unarmed Strikes lose the nonlethal special quality, and nowhere in the "Normal" section does it state that Unarmed Strikes without this feat only deal nonlethal damage.
That being said, the very first line does state "You have trained to make your unarmed attacks lethal", but since such introductory sentences are usually considered to be more of a flavorful description, it doesn't help cement whether the feat actually allows your Unarmed Strikes to deal lethal damage.
I am fairly certain that IUS doesn't make your attacks lethal, in game terms. I typically warn against "rules-izing" the fluff.
Allowing IUS to make your attacks lethal infringes on the territory of Natural Weapons.
I am fairly certain that IUS doesn't make your attacks lethal, in game terms. I typically warn against "rules-izing" the fluff.
Allowing IUS to make your attacks lethal infringes on the territory of Natural Weapons.
For the cost of a feat, I am fine with it competing with natural weapons. Compared to Vesk natural attack, it still wouldn't have the improved weapon specialization damage, though it would be doing more dice-based damage. Also, there is no reason that a Vesk player couldn't have both.
It is probably a houserule, but it doesn't seem to be an overpowered one.
@HammerJack: Thanks
@Nefreet and Dracomicron: interesting, I have always read that as being able to do lethal damage. But I do see how it can be interpreted the way you do.
@Dracomicron: IUS dealing lethal damage will not be as good as natural weapon attacks due to the archaic property
@breithauptclan: unarmed strike does get weapon specialization equal to character level beginning at 3rd level. Unarmed strike is listed under basic melee weapons, which I believe all classes are proficient with.
I believe breithauptclan was referring to the 1.5 x level specialization that natural weapons gets, not saying that basic unarmed strike doesn't get specialization at all.
I am fairly certain that IUS doesn't make your attacks lethal, in game terms. I typically warn against "rules-izing" the fluff.
Allowing IUS to make your attacks lethal infringes on the territory of Natural Weapons.
For the cost of a feat, I am fine with it competing with natural weapons. Compared to Vesk natural attack, it still wouldn't have the improved weapon specialization damage, though it would be doing more dice-based damage. Also, there is no reason that a Vesk player couldn't have both.
It is probably a houserule, but it doesn't seem to be an overpowered one.
And even doing lethal damage it still has the archaic property, so would be nowhere near as powerful as natural weapons. I think having it only dealing additional nonlethal archaic damage makes it a weak feat.
When unsure, I tend to look at Starfinder feats as "updated" from Pathfinder ones (e.g. Toughness combines Pathfinder's Toughness and Endurance feats) and in that one, Improved Unarmed doesn't scale damage by level (but then, neither do weapons) but specifies it is lethal and allows you to threaten squares... the Starfinder version also mentions the threatening squares. I believe therefore that RAI improved unarmed does lethal but still archaic damage.
I believe breithauptclan was referring to the 1.5 x level specialization that natural weapons gets, not saying that basic unarmed strike doesn't get specialization at all.
Yes, I see that now. My bad. Comment withdrawn.