Grappling Weapons -- Enhancement Bonus to Grapple?

[Warhaven]

I was working on a character that would be specializing in unorthodox grappling methods, primarily the mancatcher. Am I going to run into the same problem as with AoMF? Or, would grappling weapons be a different story since it's the weapon it self that's doing the grappling?

[DM_Blake]

I think your answer is right here:

Core Rulebook, Combat, Combat Maneuvers wrote:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

I read that as adding a bonus from "other effects" (weapon enhancement) to the CMB roll if the weapon (mancatcher) is applicable to the maneuver (grapple) - it clearly is.

But, other GMs may disagree with this.

The point is, I can't think of anything else to do with a mancatcher other than grappling, which makes me think that enchanting it MUST be for enhancing the grapple maneuver. I suppose it could be a big club if you use it like one, but that almost feels like an improvised weapon - either way, who would enchant it for that purpose?

[blahpers]

Hmm. That makes me reconsider the whole amulet of might fists-meets-grappling question. Would an enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes help you grapple barehanded after all?

[DM_Blake]

Why wouldn't it?

You're grappling with your hands. Your amulet enhances your hands. The weapon (hands) is applicable to the maneuver (grapple) that is being used.

[Komoda]

I think it might. I just posted in the other thread. A +1 longsword gives you a +1 bonus to trip even though it is not a trip weapon.

From the other thread:

Barring FAQs and erratas, I think this is a tricky question.

CRB wrote:

Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

I don't know what the RAI is. It appears that if you trip with any weapon you can add the enchantment bonus. But if blahpers is correct, then even the more expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists won't add to your attack roll.

Even though you don't normally make grapple checks with a weapon, there are weapons with the grapple ability that do give you bonuses to attack with them which would mean they have to give you a bonus for the enchantment that goes along with it.

In fact the errata for trip and disarm specifically state that you CAN add the enchantment bonus for any weapon you use. This includes the bonus from Unarmed Strikes, which would allow you to gain the benefits from the Amulet for at least those two maneuvers.

Here is where it gets really tricky with RAI vs. RAW. If you have a Dan Bong (light, one-handed weapon +2 to grapple checks) you would get a total -2 to grapple checks because:

CRB wrote:

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.

And if you had two Dan Bongs, I guess you would have a +0? or can you not use both even though you need both hands to make the check? But if you don't automatically disregard the -4 penalty above, why would you ever use the weapon? It is only a d3 to damage. It would be a serious corner case to gain any real benefit from it.

So clearly you can use a weapon to grapple. There are 3 weapons in ultimate combat that have the grapple quality.

If you follow the same logic applied to trip and disarm (that you can use any weapon if you can use one weapon) then you can use Unarmed Strikes for grapple attempts. Thereby gaining the benefits of the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

I have no idea if this is RAW or RAI or TS*. But I don't think it is much of a leap of logic to come to this conclusion. Since almost every Combat Maneuver can add a weapon's bonus, why do we assume grapple can't?

Just typing out loud, don't kill me.

-----

*Totally Stupid

[DM_Blake]

Komoda wrote:

*Totally Stupid

Oh. "Stupid". I thought you had a different S-word in mind...

I like your post by the way. I'd say it was RAW. It is written that you can use your weapon bonus if it's applicable to the maneuver. Hands are applicable to all the maneuvers, more or less, and the AoMF enhances your hands so it should enhance all the maneuvers.

Mancatcher says you can ignore the -4 penalty for free hands when grappling. Dan Bong does not have this text, so technically there is a net penalty of -2 for using them. This seems ridiculous - the weapon is pretty much useless for all other uses. Either grapple with it or drop it and punch with your fists. Ergo, since it is basically a grapple-only weapon, it should not be bad at only thing it seems to be good at. I would think there is a missing bit of text excepting it from the free hands rule of grapple, similar to the text for mancatcher.