A few questions about the Hangman Vigilante Archetype

[Kiniticyst]

Hi all, making a Hangman Vigilante and I'm a little confused by a few interactions.

Firstly, I get the benefits of improved grapple when using a noose from the Hangman's Noose class feature at 2nd level. Does this mean that if I have the Improved Grapple feat, then I can now apply those benefits to the noose? Or does it mean I don't need to take the feat? I probably will be taking it anyway at some point, but would like to know if the bonuses apply when you don't have the feat.

Secondly, I use a noose to grapple, some of the feats for grappling are pretty cool (looking at Savage Slam, Explosive Escape, Piercing Grapple and a few others) but they all require improved unarmed strike.. Does the Hangman Archetype bypass this in anyway, because I don't use my hands to grapple, why would they need Improved Unarmed Strike to do stuff with the noose?

If the grappling feats are off the table because of needing improved unarmed strike, combat expertise and possible overlap with their 2nd level class feature, then I don't really know what feats to take. The Whip Mastery chain of feats seems pretty stupid because you can just buy a scorpion whip to deal lethal damage against armored opponents and even the improved and greater whip mastery feats kind of just give what Hangman's Noose already gives. Any ideas for what feats to take then?

At 11th level I can deal Increased Hidden Strike damage to an opponent I'm grappling with the noose. Do I just.. do that? Or do I still need to meet the parameters of Hidden Strike (they must be flanked or denied their dex etc.) Because I don't think I threaten with a noose at 15ft, so I don't think I ever count as flanking therefore I don't understand any circumstance in which I would ever be able to deal hidden strike damage to my grappled opponent, nevermind increased hidden strike damage.

[blahpers]

1. You don't need the feat at all unless you want to improve your abiltiy to grapple without a noose. Having the feat separately won't affect your ability to grapple with the noose.

2. No, you still need Improved Unarmed Strike to take feats that require it. If you don't intend to use unarmed strikes at all, I recommend taking the Dirty Fighting feat instead as it allows you to bypass Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, and some ability score requirements for the various improved combat maneuver feats and their descendants.

[blahpers]

3. If you don't go Dirty Fighting, the Whip Mastery feat chain actually isn't bad, though it's a significant investment. Whips have longer reach than scorpion whips, and then there's the Balor Whip featsif you're into that sort of thing.

4. Yup, you just do the damage. You can even deal your hidden strike damage as a swift action, then decide whether to burn your standard to maintain the grapple (dealing addition damage if you succeed and so choose) or release the grapple and do something else instead. Do note that tighten the noose only deals the increased hidden strike damage; it doesn't deal any damage from your weapon, ability score modifiers, enhancement bonuses, and so on. That can make damage reduction a bit of a bummer.

[Kiniticyst]

blahpers wrote:

4. Do note that tighten the noose only deals the increased hidden strike damage; it doesn't deal any damage from your weapon, ability score modifiers, enhancement bonuses, and so on. That can make damage reduction a bit of a bummer.

That's cool that you can deal imp. hidden strike d8's with a swift before you maintain. Does that mean if I choose to deal damage as part of maintaining the grapple, and the target is denied their dex... I deal hidden strike damage again? (Albeit d4's instead of d8's?)

I actually do have Dirty Fighting selected as my starting feat, I knew it functioned as combat reflexes for the purposes of pre-requisites but I must have sped read it without seeing that it also includes imp. unarmed strike in that, cheers for pointing it out!

[Ferious Thune]

1. You get the benefit of Improved Grapple (don’t provoke, get a +2) when using the noose. You don’t have Improved Grapple, so if you want any feat that has it as a prerequisite (Greater Grapple), then you still need to take Improved Grapple at some point.

2. You still need Improved Unarmed Strike if it’s listed as a prerequisite for another feat you want to take.

I’m glad to see someone else crazy enough to try to make this archetype work. I thought I was the only one.

Remember you get vigilante talents. You trade some of them away, but eventually you get one. Whip of Vengeance basically gives you two feats (Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery at 6th).

Unchained Monk can be a good dip to give you Imp. Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple. If you’re going CHA Vigilante, then Scaled Fist gets you CHA to AC as well, or since you don’t care about flurrying, you could just wear armor. If you don’t mind the BAB hit, Maneuver Master gives you the grapple as an extra attack. You might even be able to do it with the noose, since I don’t think maneuver master specifies that you can’t use a weapon for the maneuver.