| Lanathar |
So this thread is influenced by me thinking about the Ruby Masquerade. In general I would like some help understanding how Barzillai’s actions fit into a LE alignment and notably that of an Inquisitor of Asmodeus
So his notable actions (feel free to add more if I have missed any). For reference I have no problem with the Evil parts but some really make me question the Lawful element. And I know he doesn’t have to do ink LE actions. But there are some pretty major actions / plans that if not LE could move his alignment ?
1. Kidnapping the legitimate mayor and having her turned into a vampire
2. Ordering attacks on the Archivists, Sarenrae and Milani worshipers
3. Indroducing a bunch of petty and arbitrary proclamations
4. Ordering the attack on the protestors
5. Having Tiarise set up the tooth fairy situation to try and rile up the Devils Nursery and have an excuse to purge it
6. Revoking the Torrent charter and making them criminals
7. Organising a massacre of 300 citizens at a ball whilst having someone pretend to be him present
8. The main plot of aiming to become a Genus Loci and become Cheliax itself
So as to some thoughts:
1. Doesn’t seem very Lawful
2. Were the archivists outlawed ? There is a good argument that this is within the remit of a LE Inquisitor - crushing chaotic and outspoken groups
3. Ok probably the epitomy of LE
4. Justified in his eyes and within LE because someone threw something at him ...?
5. The act itself is not really LE but the idea is very much that. Creating rationale for something horrible
6. Again probably Lawful but I am not sure I remember what the Torrent crimes were? Revoking charter yes but how were they criminals?
7. The reason for the thread. How is this the act of a LE person? Is it purely the means to an end to crush revolutionaries / revolutionary spirit
8. I actually assume Asmodeus enjoys these shenanigans (as does Mephistopheles). Otherwise his powers would have been removed
Any thoughts here ?
zimmerwald1915
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*snip*
You've justified most of the acts that concern you yourself, so I'll just address the rest:
1. Kidnapping the legitimate mayor and having her turned into a vampire
Thrune has a writ of authority from the Queen which in his view provides greater legitimacy than whatever process installed Bainilus. A note: that process is not defined. Later in the AP, she (or whomever the PCs install in her place) regains the position by acclamation rather than appointment or election, but that may be reflective of her status as an incumbent and is certainly reflective of her regaining power by a coup, rather than the normal process.
Thrune may also know about what the Kintargo Contract considers a "legitimate mayor." If he does, he knows Bainilus does not qualify.
4. Ordering the attack on the protestors
Every protest is, in the eyes of an LE tyrant, incipiently a violent riot or rebellion against his authority. He is therefore justified in putting down street demonstrations with force, and would be justified in banning them entirely. He doesn't, not until the Ravens' Rising in Book 4, but he comes close with his curfew.
6. Revoking the Torrent charter and making them criminals
There wasn't really a pretext for this. It was a naked act of patronage for Thrune's allies the Order of the Rack, that Thrune felt he could get away with because the Order of the Torrent was too small and weak to resist themselves or to have much popular support. He was right, too - until the Order of the Torrent linked up with the Silver Ravens.
The PFSRD has this to say about the "despotic" sort of Lawful Evil-aligned person:
"Rarely, despots actually enjoy sharing power with like-minded souls; more often, their alliances are of convenience, and a pact's stability depends on whether the despot's goals are being met."
Betraying weak, unreliable supporters to bind more tightly the loyalty of strong, reliable supporters seems well in line with that. And Thrune is not just relying on his generosity to bind the Order of the Rack to him; the Order of the Rack accepted his gifts out of avarice but in defiance of Hellknight conceptions of property rights (which, to be sure, not all Lawful people subscribe to). Their desire to keep this under wraps is what binds them to Thrune.
7. Organising a massacre of 300 citizens at a ball whilst having someone pretend to be him present
This is indeed a means to crush revolutionaries, but there's also an element of manipulating/tempting Thrune's victims to their own demise which would appeal to a diabolical mind.
| Latrecis |
Zimmerwald's answers are pretty good. I'd pepper in a few addendums.
Exactly how Jilia became Lord Mayor is ambiguous. My made-up answer is: she was appointed by the Court of Coin and ratified by the throne (whether Abrogail II or a predecessor.) Before the elimination of the Victocora family, there would have been 5 Kintargo leaning families to 4 Throne leaning families, etc. It makes sense to me that the current noble families would be perceived by House Thrune to be the right local authoritative body to select a leader for the city. But she always held her position at the Queen's discretion so had to make sure not to annoy House Thrune, etc. Since no one knows about the Kintargo Contract (except Barzillia) she is the rightful Lord Mayor, but Abrogail has used her discretion to make a change. So Barzillai is the rightful Lord Mayor when he arrives. We can, if we need to, assume Jilia made it clear she would not cooperate - resisted legal authority - and was punished accordingly.
The Sacred Archivists were clearly engaged in sedition and Saranrae and Milani are outlawed religions. Or is that only Milani?
The inference on the Order of the Torrent is that they were investigating the true fate of the previous Lord Mayor. (I assume) Octavio did not cease and desist when ordered to do so and therefore was deemed unlawful and engaged in treason or sedition.
An inquisitor's primary motivation is the elimination of heretics and heathens and others directly opposed to his faith. In this case, rebels or suspected rebels or likely rebel sympathizers are directly antithetical to both the worship of Asmodeus and the rule of House Thrune. Eliminating a large number of them as a message to others who may harbor similar inclinations is the quintessential inquisitor thing to do. He also happens to be Evil so he doesn't really care that some of the attendees are not currently rebel sympathizers - you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.
Aspiring to be a genus loci, especially how Barzillai is doing it - through ordered contractual arrangements and systematic political dominance - is the logical outcome of Asmodeus' faith - superior beings use power and hierarchy to become more powerful in order to rule over inferior beings. And I don't think the Prince of Darkness would appreciate you calling one of his plans "shenanigans" :)
zimmerwald1915
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Exactly how Jilia became Lord Mayor is ambiguous. My made-up answer is: she was appointed by the Court of Coin and ratified by the throne (whether Abrogail II or a predecessor.) Before the elimination of the Victocora family, there would have been 5 Kintargo leaning families to 4 Throne leaning families, etc.
This strikes me as 1) entirely too straightforward and 2) giving the Court of Coin entirely too much power in a realm that likes to divide and rule. Taking the term "Court" to mean something like "Estate of the Realm," we can imagine a "Court of Churches" for the ecclesiastics (in practice controlled by the Asmodeans) and a "Court of Commons" for the guildmasters, rich merchants, and para-nobles (who are not landed and whose titles are not hereditary, but would serve as a very useful group with which to pack the third Court).