Given Starfinder is not Pathfinder, it references magical darkness in the core rulebook in only two places. One under blindsight and the other under True Seeing, where it just says those abilities defeat magical darkness. There does not seem to be any rules specifically about magical darkness blocking darkvision or that magical darkness is special in any way in and of itself. So I'm wondering at how fiendish gloom works in practice. It also raises some questions about the create darkness special ability in the Alien Archive.
Now, I'm basing some of this discussion off the darkness section of the Pathfinder FAQ, given we lack an approriate Starfinder FAQ addressing the matter.
Create darkness rules:
As a standard action, the creature can create a 20-foot radius area of darkness centered on itself, which negates the effects of all nonmagical light sources in the that area. This darkness lasts for a number of minutes equal to the creature's CR, and the creature can dismiss the effect as a standard action. The darkness doesn't move with the creature. Unless otherwise noted, any magic source of light can increase the light level in the area as normal
Fiendlish gloom rules:
As a standard action, the tiefling causes light within 20 feet of her to decrease one step. This gloom lasts for up to 1 minute, but the tiefling an dismiss it as a swift action. Nonmagical light sources can't increase the light level in this area. Magical light can increase the light level in this area only if its from an item or creature of a level or CR higher than that of the tiefling.
So my questions are:
1) Does the fiendish gloom move with the tiefling? I think the answer is yes (the celestial radiance describes the aasimar as shedding the light, and presumably moves with them).2) In Pathfinder, darkness the spell doesn't prevent ambient sunlight, starlight, moonlight from working at all, simply reducing it by 1 step. However if we apply that rule to Starfinder, that would make create darkness do nothing outside during the day or even a moonlit night. Is that intended?
Does create darkness and fiendish gloom negate non-magical ambient light levels from such things as the sun?
3) Does light pass through an area of darkness created with either of these abilities? I.e. if a Tiefling is in their bubble of darkness sitting at 0 light level (i.e. darkness), can they see enemies lit up by their own lights 100 feet away (beyond the range of darkvision). That is how it would work if the tiefling was just in a natural area of darkness (say down a tunnel) and characters 100 feet away were in an area of normal light.
I can find nothing that indicates the darkness created through either of these abilities should be treated different than if it was just naturally dark in that area. Am I missing anything?
Thanks ahead of time.
1) Does the fiendish gloom move with the tiefling? I think the answer is yes (the celestial radiance describes the aasimar as shedding the light, and presumably moves with them).
I agree with you. I think it would indeed move with the tiefling for the following reasons.
1). The tiefling is the source of the gloom.2). The ability does not designate that it is tied to any specific area. It only gives an area affected by the ability.
Create darkness rules:
As a standard action, the creature can create a 20-foot radius area of darkness centered on itself, which negates the effects of all nonmagical light sources in the that area. This darkness lasts for a number of minutes equal to the creature's CR, and the creature can dismiss the effect as a standard action. The darkness doesn't move with the creature. Unless otherwise noted, any magic source of light can increase the light level in the area as normal2) In Pathfinder, darkness the spell doesn't prevent ambient sunlight, starlight, moonlight from working at all, simply reducing it...
In this scenario, no. Darkness reads as follows. "negates the effects of all nonmagical light sources in the that area." Sunlight is a nonmagical light. Moonlight is a nonmagical light. Starlight is a nonmagical light. Neon is a non magical light (though I have had some magical moments in it's soft glow). LED's are a non-magical light. You get the gist by now I am sure. This means that within this 20 foot area there is total darkness. If you bring a magic torch into the area, then it increases the light in the area to magical torch level. If you bring some magical sunlight it increases it to magical sunlight level.
Does create darkness and fiendish gloom negate non-magical ambient light levels from such things as the sun?
Darkness yes.
Gloom no. It would simply lower the light level in a 20 foot area by 1 level from Bright light to Normal light.
3) Does light pass through an area of darkness created with either of these abilities? I.e. if a Tiefling is in their bubble of darkness sitting at 0 light level (i.e. darkness), can they see enemies lit up by their own lights 100 feet away (beyond the range of darkvision). That is how it would work if the tiefling was just in a natural area of darkness (say down a tunnel) and characters 100 feet away were in an area of normal light.
This is the most interesting question and I am sure will be the most debated.
If you are sitting in total darkness, could you see OUT of the darkness you have created. (I think I am understanding your question.)
We can discuss how light works to find out the answer. Think of stargazing. There are billions of galaxies out there we haven't found. Why not? It's because the light from them hasn't reached us yet. We can't see them because their light hasn't reached us yet.
Same concept. The light from other sources wouldn't reach you if you are in the darkness spell, UNLESS the light was a magical source of light. Say, you were in the darkness bubble, and you were trying to see an enemy outside of it. If that enemy were using a magical light or were lit up by a magical light, say.. a dancing lights spell, then since dancing lights is a magical source of light, you would be able to see anything it lights up while in the darkness.
For Gloom, if you have created darkness in this area by lowering it from Dim light to Darkness, then the only magical light you could use in the above manner to give you vision, would be magical light of a CR higher than you as the caster. However, you wouldn't be able to see outside of the darkness you created with Gloom if you lowered the level to Darkness.
Sunlight is a nonmagical light.
Does create darkness and fiendish gloom negate non-magical ambient light levels from such things as the sun?Darkness yes.
Gloom no. It would simply lower the light level in a 20 foot area by 1 level from Bright light to Normal light.
So I'm a bit confused by these answers.
If fiendish gloom makes it so "nonmagical light sources can't increase the light level in this area", why does nonmagical sunlight increase the light level in the area to bright in the first place?
I guess I don't understand why nonmagical light sources are treated differently between create darkness and fiendish gloom. "Negate the effects of" and "can't increase light level" are basically the same for light sources, right? The effect of a light source is to raise the light level.
Is a light source which sets bright light (say the solarian flare revelation) different from sunlight in some way? Would you have a lower level solarian flare revelation only be dropped to normal light under this ruling?
Now what you're suggesting overall is perhaps reasonable from a gameplay standpoint, and is perhaps the developer intent. Unfortunately its unclear to me what the developer intent was for fiendish gloom. Is intended to be weaker or stronger than create darkness? Is it a sidegrade? Any magic light trumps create darkness, but any higher level magical light than the tiefling (excluding any special clauses) is still reduced 1 level by the tiefling's fiendish gloom, and equal or weaker ones don't work in the first place. So it sounds like fiendish gloom is an overall stronger effect.
Also, celestial radiance from an aasimar going head to head with an equal level fiendish gloom tiefling is all sorts of headache inducing. Is "preventing from raising the light level" the same as "reducing the light level"? :)
So I'm a bit confused by these answers.If fiendish gloom makes it so "nonmagical light sources can't increase the light level in this area", why does nonmagical sunlight increase the light level in the area to bright in the first place?
CRB 261: Sources of bright light include direct sunlight outdoors, a nearby star shining through a starship viewport etc...
I was assuming that gloom was cast in direct sunlight.
I guess I don't understand why nonmagical light sources are treated differently between create darkness and fiendish gloom. "Negate the effects of" and "can't increase light level" are basically the same for light sources, right? The effect of a light source is to raise the light level.
I don't like how they worded Darkness either. 'Negate the effect of' is another way of saying makes darkness. Think of really really REALLY dark blinds. Ones so dark that they absorb all the light that hits them. These blinds negate the effect of light.
For Gloom, the blinds only have enough capacity to lower the light level by 1 degree. They are just a shade of grey if you will :)
Is a light source which sets bright light (say the solarian flare revelation) different from sunlight in some way? Would you have a lower level solarian flare revelation only be dropped to normal light under this ruling?
Flare is a supernatural ability so is therefore, magical. For Darkness, Flare will work fine. For Gloom, if Flare were used to increase the light level, it would increase it only if the caster were a higher CR than the tiefling. In this case it would depend on the current level of the light. If the Flare caster chose bright light, and the area was Dim light, it would move to bright light. Gloom doesn't keep the area from being lit up from the Flare to whatever level the Flare caster desires as long as the Flare caster is a higher CR than the tiefling. Gloom says nothing about increasing the light level to greater than what it was before Gloom lowered the light.
If the Solarian was a lower level the Flare would have no effect on Gloom.
Now what you're suggesting overall is perhaps reasonable from a gameplay standpoint, and is perhaps the developer intent. Unfortunately its unclear to me what the developer intent was for fiendish gloom. Is intended to be weaker or stronger than create darkness? Is it a sidegrade? Any magic light trumps create darkness, but any higher level magical light than the tiefling (excluding any special clauses) is still reduced 1 level by the tiefling's fiendish gloom, and equal or weaker ones don't work in the first place. So it sounds like fiendish gloom is an overall stronger effect.
Think about it this way. Darkness is a static ability. It's kind of set it and forget it. It doesn't have enough.. let's say.. magic fuel.. to exclude magical light. Gloom on the other hand is fueled by the tiefling. As his level increases, the strength needed to negate his abilities increases commiserate with the tiefling's level.
For Gloom, the blinds only have enough capacity to lower the light level by 1 degree.
If the Solarian was a lower level the Flare would have no effect on Gloom.
So let me see if I've got your proposal right.
If there's a lower level solarian with flare running at bright light level in an otherwise dark room, and the tiefling walks in and then activates infernal gloom, the area under both the flare and infernal gloom effect goes completely dark?
If instead of the tiefling a monster with create darkness walks in and uses it, it does nothing in the overlapping areas, because flare is magical?
If the same room has some squares lit by bright sunlight through a hole in the roof, and the tiefling walks in and activates infernal gloom, the light level only drops to normal light (one step down) in the overlapping areas?
If instead of the tiefling a monster with create darkness walks in and uses it, it goes completely dark in the overlapping areas, because sunlight is nonmagical?
If the above is correct, I guess my only question is why is a lower level flare set to bright light and direct sunlight treated differently by infernal gloom. Unless ambient natural light is intended to be treated differently from other light sources like in the Pathfinder FAQ regarding Darkness, which is not an unreasonable assumption lacking any other indication from the developers.
So let me see if I've got your proposal right.
If there's a lower level solarian with flare running at bright light level in an otherwise dark room, and the tiefling walks in and then activates infernal gloom, the area under both the flare and infernal gloom effect goes completely dark?
No. The 20 foot area around the tiefling would lower one light level to Normal light. Flare is a magical source of light so it potentially could negate the Gloom's effect if the Solarian were a higher CR. But gloom only lowers light in the area by one degree. If the Solarian's Flare is emitting bright light, it would lower it to normal light in the overlapping area.
If instead of the tiefling a monster with create darkness walks in and uses it, it does nothing in the overlapping areas, because flare is magical?
This is correct. There would be no effect as all the light in the area were magical from the Solarian' Flare ability. The monster could cast the spell and it wouldn't do anything.
If the same room has some squares lit by bright sunlight through a hole in the roof, and the tiefling walks in and activates infernal gloom, the light level only drops to normal light (one step down) in the overlapping areas?
Correct. Sunglight is a non-magical source of light and nothing anyone did could give that sunlight the ability to increase the light level to bright. If the Solarian were in the room and a higher CR, he could create bright light and then increase the light level to bright in any overlapping areas.
If instead of the tiefling a monster with create darkness walks in and uses it, it goes completely dark in the overlapping areas, because sunlight is nonmagical?
Correct.
If the above is correct, I guess my only question is why is a lower level flare set to bright light and direct sunlight treated differently by infernal gloom. Unless ambient natural light is intended to be treated differently from other light sources like in the Pathfinder FAQ regarding Darkness, which is not an unreasonable assumption lacking any other indication from the developers.
The only verifiable difference is that one is a magical source (Flare) of light and the other is a nonmagical source (Sunlight) of light. From this reading and application, it seems that you are indeed supposed to treat them differently. Personally I don't like to try and delve into what the developers intended or what they meant or wanted to do. That's a slippery path and has no resolution simply because we aren't the developers. As it is written, it seems that we are to understand that gloom and darkness both treat magical light differently than normal light sources and it could be rationalized that this is because they are themselves magical effects. That's a weak rationalization I know, since Gloom clearly DOES effect magical light of a creature with a CR lower than the tiefling, but unless a developer comes to the boards and clarifies the best course of action is to just use the rules as written. This will protect both the players and the GM.
No. The 20 foot area around the tiefling would lower one light level to Normal light. Flare is a magical source of light so it potentially could negate the Gloom's effect if the Solarian were a higher CR. But gloom only lowers light in the area by one degree. If the Solarian's Flare is emitting bright light, it would lower it to normal light in the overlapping area.So let me see if I've got your proposal right.
If there's a lower level solarian with flare running at bright light level in an otherwise dark room, and the tiefling walks in and then activates infernal gloom, the area under both the flare and infernal gloom effect goes completely dark?
So you are treating sunlight and flare the same for infernal gloom, but in the way I wasn't expecting. Although you earlier said:
If the Solarian was a lower level the Flare would have no effect on Gloom.
Which leads to two different situations I think we're describing. One where flare is already on, and it drops only by 1 light level when infernal gloom turns on, and the other where infernal gloom is already on, and flare does nothing when it turns on.
I think I finally see how you're reading it. You're treating any source of light prior to the activation (or presumably movement in of) infernal gloom as the light level to be modified. Its a reasonable reading, although it results in order of effects mattering.
If the tiefling with infernal gloom walks towards a lower level solarian with bright light flare, the light drops 1 step to normal light. If the solarian with flare walks towards the tiefling with infernal gloom already up and in total darkness, it stays totally dark around the tiefling.
Depending on movement, that view can have some points in those two overlapping effects simultaneously be normal light while others are pure darkness, depending on how they move. For example, if the tiefling moves towards solarian and now the first 5 feet of area overlap, so its now normal light instead of bright in that 5 foot wide band. Then the solarian moves towards tiefling 5 feet, and now you've got a band of darkness after the bands of normal light even though both sections are under the effect of a lower level flare and infernal gloom. Which is a bit complicated to say the least.
Which is a different way of treating it from the Pathfinder FAQ, which simplifies the interactions a lot, as you don't need to keep track of order of local application of light effects.
Darkness: Can adding additional sunrods to the area of the spell increase the light level?
No, sunrods can never increase the light level of an area of darkness because they are not magical sources of light. In such an area, it automatically defaults to the ambient natural light level (the light level from natural sources, such as the sun, moon, and stars—not torches, campfires, light spells, and so on), and then reduces it one step.
Emphasis mine.
And just to throw in selected sections of the Pathfinder Darkness wording and infernal gloom wording to show the sections that are similar:
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness...Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
As a standard action, the tiefling causes light within 20 feet of her to decrease one step... Nonmagical light sources can’t increase the light level in this area. Magical light can increase the light level in this area only if it’s from an item or creature of a level or CR higher than that of the tiefling.
Infernal gloom seems very close to the Pathfinder darkness spell wording, and the more I think about it, is probably intended to perform about the same in similar situations. So I'll run it as Pathfinder Darkness until a FAQ comes out.
Upon further reflection, since create darkness is using a different phrasing (negate rather than can't increase), I think you're right and the developers did intend it to have a different effect from the Pathfinder darkness spell, namely produce total darkness even in the presence of natural ambient light. I still feel the wording could be clearer somehow between the two abilities. I feel like inserting some variation of the Pathfinder FAQ clarification directly into infernal gloom would have been useful perhaps.
This discussion has been useful for clarifying my understanding of how I think these effects work, at least until the Starfinder FAQ gets updated with darkness questions.
Thanks.
Any time Hiruma.
I appreciate your candor and intelligent responses.
I think we both agree that the Starfinder wording for Darkness will cause a great amount of confusion.
'Negate the effect of' screams misinterpretation as you would have to ask what the effect of natural light is? Light doesn't cause an effect. It is simply electromagnetic radiation in a specific portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. It causes no effect. It is either absorbed by matter or it's not, which allows entities with the capacity to detect that radiation to discern which waves have been absorbed and which have not.
Hence my reference to the really dark blinds. The blinds have an effect on the light as they absorb a specific spectrum of that radiation. The light has no effect on the blinds. (And before someone jumps in on this claim, "that's not true" I agree... it depends on the type of light as to if it does or does not have an effect. I was simply stating for the purposes of visual detection, which waves of the radiation have been absorbed)
P.S. Again, please understand that the context of our discussion has centered on the visual aspect of illumination. Please don't jump on here and go off about radiation having an effect on something. I am familiar with how Bruce Banner became the Hulk. lol