The response of the military is considered a relevant factor in the success or failure of modern revolutions; not the only or the most important, necessarily. Still, my table has a player that's actively trying to co-opt parts of the occupying forces for the revolution, hoping to recruit or paralyze the military.
So, why would dottari, hell knights, or soldiers join up to fight Thrune? Or why would there be dissension in the ranks?
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The response of the military is considered a relevant factor in the success or failure of modern revolutions; not the only or the most important, necessarily. Still, my table has a player that's actively trying to co-opt parts of the occupying forces for the revolution, hoping to recruit or paralyze the military.
So, why would dottari, hell knights, or soldiers join up to fight Thrune? Or why would there be dissension in the ranks?
At what point in the story are we talking, and how many people are we talking at once?
I ask because Book 2 is premised in large part around just this sort of split - and I recall that aspect being so disappointing for you that you wrote an entirely new Book 2 in its place. Its two splits from the military consist of 1) a platoon of Hellknights driven to oppose the government by the government's policies attacking them directly and 2) a ship full of sailors and marines driven to oppose the government out of loyalty to their captain, who turns coat because the government's policies inadvertently interfered in his personal life. I assume that you don't think any of this makes compelling storytelling, and your player, if they got to experience any of it at all, didn't find the scale of the defections (it amounts to six guys the players can actually use; the bulk of the sailors and marines never do anything at all and might as well not exist) satisfying.
What is missing here is any sense of a positive political motivation for soldiers (this is not a catch-all term; I find the sympathy that posters here have for the dottari in particular to be misplaced, and am of the opinion that an appeal to them is likewise misplaced) to defect, by which I mean an active appeal by the SRs. The splits in Book 2 are motivated by the government flailing about, alienating people. They are attracted to the SRs out of necessity. Politics in Kintargo has become a binary choice, and the SRs themselves are assumed to be built on lowest-common-denominator politics. You can multiply the ways in which the government is alienating its front-line enforcers - for example by not paying them, or by making them accessories or parties to torture - but I don't think this addresses the problem, it just makes the pool of dissatisfied people wider by making the concerns they'd be willing to split over more prosaic.
The real question is, can your player promote a positive vision for soldiers that is integrated with your SRs' overall politics, and so affirmatively attract people on something other than the basis of the lowest common denominator? What can the SRs offer? More humane forms of discipline in the military? Election of officers? A foreign policy of peace? A domestic policy that sees the military used less, or not at all, against internal enemies with whom the soldiers identify?
For the Dottari:
For the Hellknights:
For the Navy:
At what point in the story are we talking, and how many people are we talking at once?
Middle of Book 3. Menador Gap hasn't happened yet. They ended the year with kidnapping Zella Zdili, who they first disgraced in a scandal when she was provost of the school system. It's edging towards a shooting war very soon.
We have one player actively trying to convert dottari, while the others are uninterested in that. I'm not sure how much I want to do this storyline, simply on personal political grounds, but my player seems really interested in achieving this particular goal, so I'm figuring it out more. I've not figured out what the dottari want, so we've been calling this the donut gambit until we get something better.
They have an ... ambiguous relationship with Tayocet Tiora, who I've changed to be a good beat cop who was demoted from her former role as captain of the dottari under the prior mayor.
I ask because Book 2 is premised in large part around just this sort of split - and I recall that aspect being so disappointing for you that you wrote an entirely new Book 2 in its place. Its two splits from the military consist of 1) a platoon of Hellknights driven to oppose the government by the government's policies attacking them directly and 2) a ship full of sailors and marines driven to oppose the government out of loyalty to their captain, who turns coat because the government's policies inadvertently interfered in his personal life. I assume that you don't think any of this makes compelling storytelling, and your player, if they got to experience any of it at all, didn't find the scale of the defections (it amounts to six guys the players can actually use; the bulk of the sailors and marines never do anything at all and might as well not exist) satisfying.
I ended up keeping both storylines, but reworking how they got to them. For Octavio, I ended up having the rescue of the armigers have to happen first to find out where he was hiding out. The armigers have rescued some dog housing victims. For Marquel, I had him get word to the SR of his plight, in a way that alienated him a bit from the Bellflower Network, and they rescued him. He's their propagandist and I give them revolutionary poems every once in a while. He's currently writing a revolutionary play to bring the Shelynites into the fold, tentatively titled by the players as "Les Miserables But They Win". So, essentially canon in that way.
Looking back at it, I ended up keeping most of book 2, but just adding to it a lot, especially with the Disbanding the Queensmen storyline.
What is missing here is any sense of a positive political motivation for soldiers (this is not a catch-all term; I find the sympathy that posters here have for the dottari in particular to be misplaced, and am of the opinion that an appeal to them is likewise misplaced) to defect, by which I mean an active appeal by the SRs. The splits in Book 2 are motivated by the government flailing about, alienating people. They are attracted to the SRs out of necessity. Politics in Kintargo has become a binary choice, and the SRs themselves are assumed to be built on lowest-common-denominator politics. You can multiply the ways in which the government is alienating its front-line enforcers - for example by not paying them, or by making them accessories or parties to torture - but I don't think this addresses the problem, it just makes the pool of dissatisfied people wider by making the concerns they'd be willing to split over more prosaic.
Yeah, I have a lot of ambivalence about the dottari, which the table is probably picking up on. I've hedged my bets by splitting the dottari into three groups: the best cops hired by Jilia Bainilus who were driven out and can be found in taverns, the brutal dottari brought in from out of town by Barzillai and Vannases Trex, and the leftovers from the prior administration (the brutal, the corrupt, the idealists who were demoted but hung on, or just punching a clock to get to retirement).
Yeah, basically, there's reasons for dottari to be disaffected. But there's no reason to join up.
The real question is, can your player promote a positive vision for soldiers that is integrated with your SRs' overall politics, and so affirmatively attract people on something other than the basis of the lowest common denominator? What can the SRs offer? More humane forms of discipline in the military? Election of officers? A foreign policy of peace? A domestic policy that sees the military used less, or not at all, against internal enemies with whom the soldiers identify?
Thank you. Exactly. This is what I couldn't put into words yet.
For the Dottari:
As for your campaign's use of him, I might be able to use Tayocet Tiora as the popular (former) officer who could rally parts of the dottari. Maybe I'll have the Thrunes throw her in Deepmar prison colony.
For the Hellknights: ** spoiler omitted **
Yep. The party doesn't know about the
For the navy
Yep. I also made sure to mention that the navy is occupied in the south with Andoran anti-slavery actions and troop movements.
Having some people in the government not respect Thrune (or flat-out realize he's a terrible person and that the Ravens are right) is a foot in the door for the PCs to get some government workers on their side.
Some of the events in the books are easily changed just a little to make dottari be against him.
If you're partway through book 3 you're about to come up to a large one that doesn't need to be changed at all. NPCs simply have to say "woah, that's too far. How could he do that."
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Yeah, I have a lot of ambivalence about the dottari, which the table is probably picking up on.
Been thinking about this more, and particularly the distinction between "armed factions" and "soldiers." What follows is a list of armed factions and their assumed political alignments - bold factions are assumed to align with the Silver Ravens over the course of the adventure path, italicized factions are assumed to oppose the Silver Ravens, struck-through factions are assumed to have been destroyed in the Night of Ashes (the Silver Ravens largely scoop up the dregs of these in Book One to form their cadre), and non-formatted factions are waverers, apolitical, or do not feature in the plot of Hell's Rebels:
Military Forces:
Scourge of Belial crew (Cassius Sargaeta);
Menador Keep garrison (Lucian Thrune); and
Masks of Keys (Delaraius Solzakarr; Vyre).
Paramilitary Forces:
Hellknight Order of the Rack (Kyrre Ekodyre);
Hellknight Order of the Torrent (Octavio Sabinus);
Chelish Citizens' Group (Tombus Regegious);
Masks of Blood (Pirreta; Vyre);
Masks of Delights (Manticce Kaleekii; Vyre); and
Masks of Whispers (Simandu; Vyre).
Noble Retainers:
House Aulamaxa (Eldonna Aulamaxa);
House Aulorian (Auxis Aulorian);
House Delronge (Melodia Delronge);
House Jarvis (Belcara Jarvis);
House Jhaltero (Canton Jhaltero);
House Sarini (Urora Sarini);
House Tanessen (Geoff Tanessen);
House Vashnarstill (Sendi Vashnarstill); and
House Victocora (Porcia Victocora).
Police Forces:
Kintargo Dottari (Vannases Trex);
Masks of Blades (Mera Bantikere; Vyre).
Gangs:
Red Jills (Scarplume);
Lacunafex (Mialari Docur);
Skinsaw Cult (Hei-Fen);
River Talons (Ravzee).
Revolutionaries:
Bellflower Network (Laria Longroad);
Sacred Order of Archivists (Porcia Victocora);
Rose of Kintargo (Hetamon Haace);
Cloven Hoof Society (Strea Vestori).
What is striking here is the sheer number of armed factions, their diversity in type, and their more or less clear political alignments. It can be clearly seen that there are military forces, paramilitaries, and gangs of different political alignment, and that the noble retainers are the most ambivalent about the whole sides-choosing business. There are, however, just two proper "police" factions, only one of which is actually in Kintargo. Given all this, it shouldn't actually be necessary to split the Dottari; the other forces more readily available to the Silver Ravens should be numerous and powerful enough.
It is possible that the singularity of the police organization - and not simply pro-cop sentiment - is what's driving your player and folk on this board to try and split the dottari. But I think the approach of the AP, which with a few exceptions is to treat political and armed factions more or less as coherent units, is the correct one. I also think that your approach to your player, of establishing factions within the dottari based on history and interest rather than writing the whole mass as "just doing their jobs" and ultimately open to political appeals is the best middle ground between the AP's approach and your player's bizarre fixation.
That said, an avenue to pursue with your player might be the enforcement of the new norms within the dottari as an organization. Under Bainilus, the dottari were actually fairly lax when it came to enforcing the legal code. They probably don't know it all that well. So the holdovers from her regime should be chafing under the burden of having to attend remedial trainings, which are probably unpaid and on formerly-free time. The Silver Ravens' policy of abolishing much of the legal code would free them from having to do that. In the meantime, they can link up with any dottari demanding reforms like paid remedial trainings. Trex also probably shuffled people around from location to location, to break up established centers of power and to alienate the dottari from the communities where they're stationed, the better to make them all loyal to her new power structure. The Silver Ravens could pledge to reverse that, reuniting work friends with each other and rooting the police more in their beats.