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This is sort of a spiritual successor to my post on rebuilding characters
I was reading through parts of books 3 and 4 today and unless I am horribly misreading some of the “humanoid with class levels” enemies seems to be very weak. I haven’t done a detailed comparison but a read through has left me unimpressed with their ability to threaten a group as they move through the levels . Especially when compared to monsters of similar CRs
(Note: I have limited experience at levels 7+)
Key reasons seems to be:
- Fixed elite array limiting stat options
- A seeming obsession with NPC classes that act as vestigial limbs (I am glad they become backgrounds in 2E).
- Bad feat selections (lots seem to have unexplained item creation which I assume must have a rationale somewhere)
All this pretty much highlights the flaws in the CR system in my view
This issue seems pretty important in an AP where humanoids with class levels make up a higher than average proportion of foes
Notable cases:
- Lucien the book 3 cavalier - dreadful AC, 3 dead levels and a completely wasted “mount” ability as it is replaced
- Vanases Trex - just seems like no threat whatsoever except once she challenges which is apparently a delayed tactic. But without precise shot is unlikely to hit much at this level.
- Trex’s supporting dottari captains - archers with 16 strength and 12 Dex...
- Tombus : 4 wasted aristocrat levels
- Tiarise : deadly spells but 3 items creation feats seem a waste
(The DCs seem low but this might just be my lack of experience with these levels)
- Skinsaw cultists - pitiful damage output at that level. Seem similar to the scrivenite in that they are just merely blocks which can come across as boring
Have I completely misinterpreted? What has people’s experience been? Has anyone else considered any rebuilding ?
You have to modify significant NPCs at this stage to fit your table.
For me, Lucien's poor saves are the problem. The fact that he'll be in the air at least means he won't fall down a pit spell.
But damage output could be okay:
Spirited Banner Challenge Cavalier Charge: +1 flaming greatsword +18/+13 (4d6+24/17–20 plus 1d6 fire) May move after attack
• w/ Vital strike +18 (6d6+24/17–20 plus 1d6 fire) May move after attack
• w/ Power Attack: +15/+10 (4d6+42/17–20 plus 1d6 fire) May move after attack
• w/ Power Vital: +15 (6d6+42/17–20 plus 1d6 fire) May move after attack
But, yes, I may very well replace those aristocrat levels. Although he is supposed to be a bit of a loser. You could slap an advanced template on him or devilbound without much trouble.
I'd make the Menador Gap have two troops, rather than a walkover bunch of soldiers.
Trex I made devilbound:bearded devil. That gave regeneration, see in darkness, an erinyes, dimension door, and rage. I also boosted her to 11th level. (The dottari captains seem to be switch-hitters, not archers, as they have feats for both archery and melee. They're curb-stomp material anyway, designed to be roadblocks.) I'd add some Asmodean clerics to this encounter.
Tombus I made into a 13th level monk/assassin. It just fit my campaign to have him as a rival dojo leader.
Tiarise makes a bunch of golems for the Church of Asmodeus, which is why she has those feats. But, yes, drop one of the ones not needed for Spell Focus.
The lower level people are just there for blocking purposes. Throw an advanced template on them and teamwork feats if you need to boost them.
You have to modify significant NPCs at this stage to fit your table.
For me, Lucien's poor saves are the problem. The fact that he'll be in the air at least means he won't fall down a pit spell.
But damage output could be okay:
Spirited Banner Challenge Cavalier Charge: +1 flaming greatsword +18/+13 (4d6+24/17–20 plus 1d6 fire) May move after attack
• w/ Vital strike +18 (6d6+24/17–20 plus 1d6 fire) May move after attack
• w/ Power Attack: +15/+10 (4d6+42/17–20 plus 1d6 fire) May move after attack
• w/ Power Vital: +15 (6d6+42/17–20 plus 1d6 fire) May move after attack
But, yes, I may very well replace those aristocrat levels. Although he is supposed to be a bit of a loser. You could slap an advanced template on him or devilbound without much trouble.I'd make the Menador Gap have two troops, rather than a walkover bunch of soldiers.
Trex I made devilbound:bearded devil. That gave regeneration, see in darkness, an erinyes, dimension door, and rage. I also boosted her to 11th level. (The dottari captains seem to be switch-hitters, not archers, as they have feats for both archery and melee. They're curb-stomp material anyway, designed to be roadblocks.) I'd add some Asmodean clerics to this encounter.
Tombus I made into a 13th level monk/assassin. It just fit my campaign to have him as a rival dojo leader.
Tiarise makes a bunch of golems for the Church of Asmodeus, which is why she has those feats. But, yes, drop one of the ones not needed for Spell Focus.
The lower level people are just there for blocking purposes. Throw an advanced template on them and teamwork feats if you need to boost them.
I can't quite see how you are getting Lucien's numbers. I don't think he has spirited charge - for some reason he has skill focus ride instead
As PC level goes up CR becomes increasingly unreliable as a single measure of true challenge. As roguerouge said, you need to tailor encounters to your particular group at least some of the time. A group of PC's might be armor class strong and will save weak or vice versa and a CR 10 creature with high BAB is going to be different kind of challenge to each group.
I've always viewed the NPC classes as just another form of advanced template so Tombus is a 9th level rogue with some extra HD. I applaud Paizo for using the NPC classes as intended (at least one of the intents) but also agree it can make opponents under-powered compared to a character with all levels in PC classes.
I also agree Lucien is a poor fit for Menador Keep - there's little space for him to use his airborne abilities. And a wyvern is an anti-cooperative mount selection, unlikely to make it easy for Lucien to work with other cavaliers or mounted units (meaning its a weird choice for Lucien regardless of posting.) Frankly a wyvern mount would be a better idea for Vannases Trex. I'll likely rebuild Lucien entirely, losing cavalier for something else. What? Don't know yet. Have a ways to go, since I'm going to move Menador gap to Book 4.
I can't quite see how you are getting Lucien's numbers. I don't think he has spirited charge - for some reason he has skill focus ride instead
Yeah, there was a slight adjustment to add that feat in for Skill focus ride, giving him a MW saddle instead. Also, you can't charge and vital strike.
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General templates to use:
Advanced +1
Simple class templates (for monsters, mostly) +1-3
Simple corruption templates (Hellbound, shadowbound, and Vampiric) +1
Nidal-aligned creatures
Simple dark creature (for Nidal)
Apostle Kyton +2
Nidal’s Shadow Animals +1 or 2
Shadow creature +1
Thrune Team templates:
Devilbound Creature +1
For the golems in the Temple: Fiend-infused Golem (Cheliax) +2
Nightmare creature (perhaps one summoned by Tiarise or Zella) +1
Simple fiendish
Advanced templates strike me as strange on humans
Devilbound is a very interesting suggestion though. Thanks
I guess I was more trying to see if anyone else had made changes or was planning to
I am going to read into the different types of devil binding
Advanced templates strike me as strange on humans
What point buy are your PCs versus what the AP is expecting (AP expects 15, 4 characters, not optimized at all.)
Putting the simple advanced template on bad guys usually works out quite well for me in the past. Just be sure you're willing to adjust things down a little on the fly if your PCs are 20 point buy.
If you need a narrative rationale, just call it part of the Thrune family deal with Asmodeus.
Advanced templates strike me as strange on humansWhat point buy are your PCs versus what the AP is expecting (AP expects 15, 4 characters, not optimized at all.)
Putting the simple advanced template on bad guys usually works out quite well for me in the past. Just be sure you're willing to adjust things down a little on the fly if your PCs are 20 point buy.
They are 20 point buy, 5 players
I have been doing a lot of changing on the fly recently. Ghasts could have TPK'd without some audibles being called.
My Varl Wex (Battle Host Occultist 7 / Unchained Rogue 3) with 20 points and ABP was monstrous
The tight confines of a lot the fights in this AP are really making things interesting. It seems my players are used to big caves (or listening to a podcast where they are playing Giantslayer in massive giant sized rooms)
One of the best ways to "level up" a BBEG is to include leveled minions. I think arcane casters are a good addition, since the AP features very few of them on Team Thrune.
With Kyrre: Hell Knight Signifer (Human Sorcerer 6/Hell Knight Signifer 2)
With Zella: Wizard Extraordinaire (Human Universalist 7)
Support caster at bridge or at Menador Gap: "Conjurist" Wizard 7
Reuse a lot by simply changing spell selection!
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Ugh, the Menador soldier stat block in Dance of the Damned is a mess. Ranged attacks say +3 but should be +8 including feats and equipment bonus, +9 w/in 30ft before Deadly Aim. But even then they are underpowered. +5 melee isn't going to hit most of my players, except maybe the mesmerist. Everyone else is at least AC 20. Going to add 2 more levels of Fighter and melee feats for the halberd (W. Focus & W. Specialization)
Might as well add a battle chaplain (use Sabo stats & tactics) and a dottari troop if the alarm is raised.
--StatVrock
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In my game the soldiers had chance to form up into a troop - no need to worry about AC then!
But yes there are definite typos in the solider block
Also I would make the dottari at the masquerade closer to those from book 2 than the soldiers (as this was clearly only to save space).
Even if you remove a level and switch the halberd feats for sword ones - those guards are not going to have ballista EWP and be crossbow specialists ....
So I haven't run Menador Gap yet (hopefully I will tomorrow, assuming I'm not in the hospital). I'm running the Menador Soldiers as written unless enough of them get together to form a troop (to pursue the PC's for instance). Of course I've actually calculated out their attack bonus because the one in the book is definitely wrong.
I've added a 9th level bard (Chelish Diva) and replaced the oozes with drillmaster fighters to boost the individual soldier's usefulness.
I've also added 4 host devils and changed Azamort to a gilded devil (3pp). And since Zailorsorn would die in like 1-2 rounds max vs. My gunslinger, I've buffed the wyvern up to an advanced fork-tail. I've also added a level of cavalier to Lucian and changed his teamwork feats up a bit.
The end result is my party could theoretically take a frontal assault on the keep but it wouldn't be a cakewalk as written...
Plus between the advanced erinyes and the host devils invisibility isn't an auto-win button.