| Monkeygod |
I have not yet had a chance, no, but I feel like these are questions best suited for Kirth himself to answer.
I will say, I think the most important decision is to just make all PCs use Kirthfinder. Whether we're able to use mythic on top of that is something I don't really know, but I feel like having the PCs use the same base system is important.
I feel like you could easily tinker with the villains/NPCs enough to make them challenging/useful(for allies) using whichever system you want. Between templates, mythic, access to 3pp material(which I assume if all of us PCs are using KF, 3pp will be off limits), and such should give you plenty to work with when making NPCs.
| Jereru |
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I agree with Monkeygod, the most important is that all PCs use a unified system, whichever it will be I don't mind and then NPCs really don't matter as long as they pose the challenge you want them to pose. In my games, most of my NPCs only have 3 or 4 stats, the absolute necessary for combat/interaction.
| Sebecloki |
I tend to make them by combining stats for different monsters or taking a 'base' npc of the same level and race and then add on features, like archetypes etc. I then assign feats and spells with optimization netbook -- sorry if that spoils the illusion for anyone in one of my games who thought I designed all that stuff from scratch, I absolutely don't!
| Kirth Gersen |
I have not yet had a chance, no, but I feel like these are questions best suited for Kirth himself to answer.
For the most part, I tried to put Mythic (BAB +16 feat effects, advanced talents, permanent spell effects) and Gestalt (class synergy features) options into the basic KF rules themselves, so as not to need them as add-ons.
| Kaouse |
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High level Kirthfinder characters really really don't need Mythic. Honestly, there's not much that the Mythic ruleset can even offer a high level Kirthfinder character.
If you want to increase PC power, then just giving a free feat every level and maybe a +1 stat boost every two levels would likely be enough. In place of Gestalt, maybe add an option to spend feats to increase class synergy/theurgy.
With those relatively small changes, you'll certainly notice a big difference, IMHO.
| wanderer82 |
Seconding what others have said, I think as long as all PCs are built within the same parameters, we should see an even gameplay. NPCs and monsters, by their very nature as creations of the GM, need not follow strict rules, and as such can be adjusted and improved as needed to attain the right game challenge.
As for a concept, I am thinking a former warrior of one of the knightly orders that survived the Crusades, perhaps (if gestalt) that was blessed with the light of the angels (fighter/cleric, or something of the sort).
| Sebecloki |
I'm thinking about the options before I re post the recruitment, Having had a chance to look at the Kirthfinder rule set in a bit more detail, it seems to me the issue is having more trait/feat slots, since that's where all the special features arise from.
What do we think would be a fair allocation?
| Sebecloki |
I'm also in the process of trying to make a compiled pdf of the Kirthfinder rules with bookmarks, and get all the other files arranged in an easy to access format. I think the gdrive file is great for editing it like Kirth has to do as he updates, but I think we need one easily-digestible file for newcomers to do character creation and I'm working on it.
| Sebecloki |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay here's a revised proposal for character creation rules, with the bookmarked pdf of the Kirthfinder core rules I made, let's discuss this and then I'll create a new recruitment thread:
Dracula: The Return
Constantinople had fallen. Muslim Turks swept into Europe with a vast, superior force, striking at Romania, threatening all of Christendom. From Transylvania arose a Romanian knight, of the Sacred order of the dragon, known as Dracula. On the eve of The battle, his bride Elisabeta whom he prized above all things On earth knew that he must face an insurmountable force from which he might never return...
In 1462, Vlad Dracula, a member of the Order of the Dragon, returns from a victory against the Turks to find his wife, Elisabeta, having committed suicide after receiving a false report of his death. The priest proceeds to tell him that his wife's soul is condemned for committing suicide. Enraged, Dracula desecrates the chapel and renounces his faith, declaring that he will rise from the grave to avenge Elisabeta with all the powers of darkness. He then stabs the chapel's stone cross with his sword and drinks the blood that pours out of it.
Campaign Concept:
The characters are reincarnated souls who have returned to the mortal coil to confront the return of the ancient Vampire Dracula in the 1890s, and the campaign will consist of two timelines that play out simultaneously.
The first is 1890s Transylvania, where the heroes will explore the ruins of Corvin Castle, ancient fortress of Dracula. This part of the campaign will be similar to the classic module Castle Ravenloft.
The second is the 15th century, where the heroes will have adventures during the wars waged by Vlad the Impaler against the Ottoman Empire. This part of the campaign will be similar in tone to Game of Thrones, and will consist of political intrigue, subterfuge, spy operations, etc.
Each character must create both a 1890s persona, and that of their former life in the 15th century. This earlier life can be either European or Ottoman.
This is going to be a high-powered campaign, as the players are all millennia-old supernatural entities.
Rules
The characters will be using a set of house rules created on these forums. The following is a compiled and bookmarked pdf of the core rules.
Additional Matters:
Stats
*50pt. buy
*No min/max
*We are using the optional Comeliness and Social Status/Class stats. These are purchased with the same 50 pt. pool at the same cost.
Races
*Mostly humans -- need a good argument for something else. The Kirthfinder rules cover templates as racial classes, for which see below.
Classes
* Gestalt Kirthfinde base classes.
* Start at 5th level.
* In addition, everyone gets 1 level of a racial character class to be Plane-touched (Celestial), or a similar, campaign appropriate choice.
Feats
* 1 combat/combat applicable feat per level.
* You can have as many flavor/fluff/non-combat/damage-oriented feats as you like.
Defense
* Wounds and Vigor from Ultimate Combat.
* If you roll under 1/2 for Vigor for any given level, you instead take half the maximum (i.e., if you roll a 2 on 1d10, take 5).
Equipment
* As per, the Kirthfinder rules, we're going to handwave equipment and have everyone just select things that are appropriate for the character.
| Monkeygod |
Important question:
For the earlier life characters, are we going to be full on playing these flashback scenes? Ie, will this be two separate games under one unified story? Or will the flashbacks be more narrative storytelling?
I feel like if this is going to be two full separate games, that's going to be too much and too confusing.
Even a normal 5th level game has a lot to keep track of, but adding in all these extra rules, and then making two charters for two wildly different times, who are engaged in two very different types of games, will be insanely complex and complicated.
| Kaouse |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I should note, Kirthfinder already has a fairly decent damage system. Generally, creatures dropped to half health are lightly wounded, and take battle fatigue (which is basically a -2 to all stats, affects casters equally). Creatures dropped to one quarter health are heavily wounded, and are subject to exhaustion (basically a -6 to all stats).
At the same time, Kirthfinder also allows every character to use the "Take a Breather" action, where you can heal up to your character level + CON mod once per encounter.
That, and the Heal skill has been buffed such that first aid can be done as a standard action, and heals an amount equivalent to whatever the check is, so long as it beats a DC of 15, and like Take a Breather, it also only works once per fight.
So, I really don't see the need to introduce an alternate system like Wounds and Vigor into the mix, IMHO.
| Jereru |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, our friend Sebecloki is a fan of the Wounds & Vigor alternate rule, so he introduces it to his games whenever possible. Which seems logical and fair to me.
I see no problem with this proposal other than it seems too much of a Magna Opera to GM both stories at the same time. I suggest we start with the 15th century one and advance in time, similar to the Transylvanian Chronicles. A chase through the centuries, pursuing the thwarting of Vlad's plans in different times and places could be an awesome story to be told...
| Jereru |
Kirthfinder classes have tons of options, I'm still reviewing them and see how they combine.
One question: the extra level we have in a race paragon class... I guess we can only pick Human or any of the "half" classes, right? Like Planetouched, Genasies, etc. I was maybe thinking about a werewolf dedicated to chase Dracula in search of a way to break his course. Maybe a Feytouched who's determined to end the abomination in the name of Mother Nature? Idk, many ideas come to my mind... Also, I suppose this level is not gestalted, right? So we end up being (5/5)+1.
| Kaouse |
Stats
*50pt. buy
*No min/max
*We are using the optional Comeliness and Social Status/Class stats. These are purchased with the same 50 pt. pool at the same cost.
Can you define what you mean by "No min/max" exactly? No stats less than 10, or what?
Also, Comeliness and Social Class are optional because they don't offer much real tangible benefit. Gold doesn't buy much in Kirthfinder, since numen exists for all of the important stuff.
Classes
* In addition, everyone gets 1 level of a racial character class to be Plane-touched (Celestial), or a similar, campaign appropriate choice.
Since most people are going to be Human, this free level in a racial character class sort of makes the Human Paragon racial class the best thing ever. It already gets strong synergy with class features of whatever else you stack it with.
That means 3/4 of it's levels apply to class features. If you give us all one free level, then you are literally upgrading it to full synergy, making it a no-brainer dip for any non-full caster class.
Even for full casters, you're only losing one level of theurgy, but gaining +4 to stats, and 3 extra bonus feats, as well as all good saves and 10 free class skills. Well worth the price, IMHO.
Feats
* You can have as many flavor/fluff/non-combat/damage-oriented feats as you like.
Oh boy. Can you define this better? As written does this allow me to take Skill Focus in everything twice over? Is stuff like Open Minded, Leadership, Command Undead, Eldritch Heritage, Domain Access, etc. all allowed?
I should note, there aren't many Kirthfinder feats that are strictly "flavor/fluff" with zero mechanical benefit. The closest one I can think of is Skill Synergy, but even skill based feats are incredibly powerful in Kirthfinder, because skills themselves are incredibly powerful in Kirthfinder.
| Monkeygod |
I *think* the free racial character level is only supposed to be from what are normally templates, as Seb said in the revamped character creation post.
That said, if we're going to play only the game set in the 1400s, we might be ditching the racial character level, as I believe the intent is to represent our reincarnation centuries later.
| Kaouse |
I *think* the free racial character level is only supposed to be from what are normally templates, as Seb said in the revamped character creation post.
That's not exactly better.
If anything, it's much worse, because Amberite exists. That level also gives you a level in an NPC class. Take Adept, give up your spellcasting progression for Weak Theurgy in a real spellcasting class, and you've lost literally zero caster levels for the transaction, while gaining 2 BAB, 2 natural armor and +4 to ALL stats.
This method loses out a bit on class synergy compared to the human racial paragon method I mentioned before, and it forces both of your human racial feats to specific choices (not like Power over Shadow is a bad feat btw), but the extra +20 to stats is more than worth the tiny losses, IMHO.
In fact, with 1 free level in an Adept Amberite, you can have one side of the gestalt be Adept 2, while the other side of the gestalt takes all 4 levels in the human racial paragon class.
This combination looses out exactly 1 level of class synergy on both sides of the gestalt, in exchange for +28 to stats. As long as your human paragon side isn't a spellcaster, that's an extraordinary boon. Even if they are, that side is only loosing out on 2 levels of spellcasting theurgy, still way more than enough to get 9th level spells by the late game anyway.
And the lost level of Synergy isn't even a problem now that I think about it, since a lot of Kirthfinder classes have class synergy boosting options that would otherwise be useless in a gestalt (since synergy can never go above HD).
| Sebecloki |
We won't be using the racial character class for now if we're just starting in the 1400s. I was intending for it to represent the supernatural quality of a reincarnation -- mostly plane-touched, though I could be convinced for other fluff-appropriate issues.
I do want to make sure we're all on the same page with the campaign idea if we're going to do a 1400s historical campaign. 'Historical' for me isn't just some window-dressing, I really take it seriously, and I'd want everyone to be on board with that. It's not going to be dungeon-crawling -- it will be Ottoman characters using Qu'ranic aphorisms in their speech, extensive descriptions of real historical places, references to historically-correct arms and armor, and the like. I'm finding difficulty with the Werewolf campaign I'm attempting getting engagement with period detail, so I want to make clear what my understanding of that is before we'd start.
| Sebecloki |
Sebecloki wrote:Stats
*50pt. buy
*No min/max
*We are using the optional Comeliness and Social Status/Class stats. These are purchased with the same 50 pt. pool at the same cost.Can you define what you mean by "No min/max" exactly? No stats less than 10, or what?
Also, Comeliness and Social Class are optional because they don't offer much real tangible benefit. Gold doesn't buy much in Kirthfinder, since numen exists for all of the important stuff.
Sebecloki wrote:Classes
* In addition, everyone gets 1 level of a racial character class to be Plane-touched (Celestial), or a similar, campaign appropriate choice.Since most people are going to be Human, this free level in a racial character class sort of makes the Human Paragon racial class the best thing ever. It already gets strong synergy with class features of whatever else you stack it with.
That means 3/4 of it's levels apply to class features. If you give us all one free level, then you are literally upgrading it to full synergy, making it a no-brainer dip for any non-full caster class.
Even for full casters, you're only losing one level of theurgy, but gaining +4 to stats, and 3 extra bonus feats, as well as all good saves and 10 free class skills. Well worth the price, IMHO.
Sebecloki wrote:Feats
* You can have as many flavor/fluff/non-combat/damage-oriented feats as you like.Oh boy. Can you define this better? As written does this allow me to take Skill Focus in everything twice over? Is stuff like Open Minded, Leadership, Command Undead, Eldritch Heritage, Domain Access, etc. all allowed?
I should note, there aren't many Kirthfinder feats that are strictly "flavor/fluff" with zero mechanical benefit. The closest one I can think of is Skill Synergy, but even skill based feats are incredibly powerful in Kirthfinder, because skills themselves are incredibly powerful in Kirthfinder.
I didn't want to specify the category of 'combat feat' because that allows metamagic and other stuff -- I want to basically achieve the same dynamic as 'background skills' applied to feats -- ability to take fluff-oriented/interesting stuff and not be feat-taxed for it.
As written does this allow me to take Skill Focus in everything twice over?
I wont' accept a character like that -- there has to be some self-restraint around a character concept.
| Kaouse |
I didn't want to specify the category of 'combat feat' because that allows metamagic and other stuff -- I want to basically achieve the same dynamic as 'background skills' applied to feats -- ability to take fluff-oriented/interesting stuff and not be feat-taxed for it.
Kaouse wrote:As written does this allow me to take Skill Focus in everything twice over?I wont' accept a character like that -- there has to be some self-restraint around a character concept.
The Kirthfinder feats chapter is split into headers. You need to be specific about what exactly you are allowing and disallowing. What counts as a flavor/fluff feat? Skill Focus Heal? Skill Focus Stealth? Skill Focus Sleight of Hand? All three of those are very much applicable in combat.
Even other skill focuses, like Craft Fine Art and other secondary skills can be used as prerequisites for Eldritch Heritages and the like. Minstrel Bards can switch out primary skills for varying perform skills, does that suddenly make those skill focus feats non-applicable?
Skill Focus Knowledge Warfare might seem like a flavor/fluff feat, but when I'm a Level 10 Fighter whose warlord feature increases tremendously because of it, is it suddenly taboo to have it for free?
Either way, giving out ANY skill focus for free greatly devalues the skill-based classes that have class features that give them bonus skill focus feats.
I highly suggest that, if you need to up the power level, just giving out a free feat (without restriction!) every level is more than enough. I don't see the purpose of restricting the bonus feats to JUST combat feats. Afterall, metamagic isn't always combat applicable. In fact I'd argue that most of the time it isn't.
At any rate, things would probably be a lot easier for both you and your players if you clearly define exactly what it is that you want to see without ambiguous text that isn't defined in the Kirthfinder ruleset (i.e. "flavor" / "fluff" / "non-combat/damage oriented" feats).
| Monkeygod |
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I think the original bonus feats is best:
* One feat per level as well as the bonus feat progression for the Fighter class (so the progression is as if you were a Fighter getting 1 feat per level plus your class feats. If you are a fighter, you get two bonus feats every time you'd have gotten one).
Which I believe is one feat per level, plus an extra bonus feat per 2 levels as if you were a Fighter, and then any bonus class feats.
| Jereru |
Honestly, feats in Kirthfinder are all so cool that they're all worth taking. It's not like in Core where there are feats no one will ever spend a slot on (and I guess that's why you wanted to give us unlimited access). There's a feat which gives a +2 racial bonus to 2 skills (and it's even labeled as inferior), which is supposed to be there to add some flavour and gather racial bonuses all in one place. You could grant us one of them for free, if you feel like.
Now, this game is going to be such an investment that I think I might have to restrain from applying to your Numenera game. What you ask will require some investigation and, sometimes, time to find the proper style of posting, but I promise I'll do my best. I hope what you've seen so far (in the Werewolf game) is to your liking - if it is not, please PM me with some suggestions on what to improve/change.
| Sebecloki |
I think the original bonus feats is best:
* One feat per level as well as the bonus feat progression for the Fighter class (so the progression is as if you were a Fighter getting 1 feat per level plus your class feats. If you are a fighter, you get two bonus feats every time you'd have gotten one).
Which I believe is one feat per level, plus an extra bonus feat per 2 levels as if you were a Fighter, and then any bonus class feats.
I think that sounds like a good solution to what I'm trying to get at -- let's go with this, I'll update the creation guidelines some time today.
| Jereru |
Honestly, this game is super appealing to me. Let me ask you:
-Is there something we need to know about the environment? For example, I guess there are magic and mythical creatures in this iteration of Europe, but are they a common thing? How do commoners react to magic powers? Should I expect to be burnt alive by the Inquisition if I play a Sorcerer?
-Is there any kind of society dedicated to hunt or protect magic creatures or monsters?
-Are we already a millennia-old creature in 1462, or just a mortal with special powers?
-Are we beginning play with Vlad already turned into a vampire, or while he's still alive? And thus, are we beginning play wanting to slay him already?
Sorry for so many questions, just want to create a good backstory that fits with what you want for the game. It's the least a player can do for the GM imho.
| Jereru |
If we can get the Numenera game back on track -- it's going to be opposite; you're characters that wake up underwater and know nothing, and go exploring, so no setting knowledge of any sort needed.
I honestly believe you put too much faith on us players to auto-restrain ourselves xD
| Sebecloki |
I should actually probably try to write up something more comprehensive about setting assumptions:
I'm intending it to be a historical world with magical and supernatural elements. The cosmology is that of the Neo-Platonic/Gnostic tradition, expressed in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam:
The ultimate One is an unknowable entity, and the Yahweh of the OT is a lesser divine entity, or is Metatron (the entirety of the details are not clear):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism:
There are angels, demons, good and evil jinn, as well as vampires and werewolves.
The prevalence of such things is in line with the 'magical'/mytho-poeic worldview of pre-modern man -- as much as medieval religion depicted the world as containing.
The populace reacts how they would in those traditions, but an arcane caster doesn't have to be a witch/warlock -- it could also be a kabbalist or sufi of some sort, or a priest with antiquarian interests in greek mathematics, and so forth. For the last example, they would understand themselves as pursuing the hidden knowledge of the Neo-Platonic, Hermetic, Christian kabbalist tradition.
There are also plausible survivals of neolithic megaufauna.
In the 1400s you are ordinary but exceptionally skilled humans.
For the society of monster killers/hunters, I'd like you to try to tie it into some historical order of templars and/or mystics. Examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Dragon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar
Vlad hasn't undergone is undead apotheosis when we start.
| Jereru |
Doh, I meant traits, lol.
the war vs his cousin Vladislav and the Hungarian guy.
What if I was a Wallachian member of the expedition of Vlad, his brother and his father to Turkey? They were held hostage and so was I, but then when they got to return to Wallachia our destinies forked for some time, up till now. In this time, my character would have learned some cool abilities that complement his training as a Wallachian boyard.
I like this, I will elaborate. I'll also try to find some info I can share about armour and weapons of the time, though I can advance that bastard swords, plate armour and early firearms are present at this time.
| Kaouse |
For what it's worth, I have an interesting build for Dracula himself that I was thinking about recently:
Amberite 2 + Adept 2 / Martial Sorcerer 1 / Vampire 8 / Lich 4 / Prestige Specialist (Necromancy) 5
In a normal campaign, this would end up with BAB 14 and a Spellcasting Capcity of 14 (using the Sorcerer list). Since this is Gestalt though, you can Gestalt him with a Human Paragon 2 / Fighter 3 / Prestige Paladin (Blackguard Antipaladin) 15.
If you can abuse theurgy between Gestalt halves (something you probably shouldn't allow, BTW, but this Final Boss Dracula so it's okay), then you end up with 20 BAB, a Spellcasting Capacity of 20, and a ton of powerful abilities + insane attribute boosts.
On the note of combining synergy/theurgy between Gestalt halves, if you choose the Knight of Arcane Order Wudan Path for Sorcerer, then if my math works out, your Paladin levels and Fighter levels (+ 1 synergy level from Human Paragon) should basically make you a level 20 Knight.
Dracula as an Advanced Vampire Lich makes a whole lot of sense, given how he never seems to stay dead for very long, and how he's able to control legions of the undead. He's basically a Lich who hides his phylactery on another plane. Antipaladin abilities also make him incredibly threatening to deal with in physical combat as well.
| Kaouse |
That sounds cool but very complicated, there's no chance I can get you to just work up those Dracula stats for me when I need them is there?
Oh sure, just let me know what levels to make them at, the exact levels are kinda important since it's best to take Prestige Specialist as often as possible, yet also best to take Lich as early as possible.
EDIT: On second thought, it's probably just better to level it exactly as I laid it out, since that martial sorcerer level is already there.
| Jereru |
Okay, still need to workout something on personality, etc, but the bulk is here. Tell me what you think. Depending on the answer to the above question, the end of the story can be tweaked.
This is going to be a Fighter/Rogue (yeah, no spellcasting, I'm crazy!). I also assumed no multiclassing, and one part of the gestalt not affecting the other.
Tiberiu was born the second and youngest son of a Mazil in Sighisoara, Transylvania, around the late 1420’s. His father was a faithful servant and follower of Vlad Dracul, and so Tiberiu had, from an early age, his destiny linked to that of Vlad Dracul’s son, who was named also Vlad.
When Dracul moved to Targoviste and seized the throne of Walachei, the Badica family followed. Tiberiu, not having a future as head of his family, was instead accepted in little Vlad’s entourage as one of his trusted nobles, bound to be an influential man once the young Vlad would inherit the voivodate. Even at that tender age, Tiberiu witnessed Vlad’s cruelty and cold blood. Notwithstanding, he kept his life closely linked to that of the future Voievodul, wanting to improve his family’s status for his descendants to come.
Years later, Vlad and his family were summoned to Gelibolu to answer for a lack of discipline regarding high politics. Tiberiu, as one of Vlad’s assistants, followed. That was a bad move, though - they were all taken hostages, and kept in the fortress of Egrigoz. That’s when the lives of Vlad and Tiberiu started to take separate paths - for a while.
While Vlad was treated as the high noble he was and, after being subjected to the customary brainwash, allowed to act as a follower of the Sultan, Tiberiu had a much different experience. As time passed by, it was clear he was being discarded, and soon he became just a disposable figure in the Ottoman army. Tiberiu had to bring out all his bravery and audacity to survive in such a hostile environment, something that eventually would help him avoid his most than probable fate.
From the deep mountains of Persia to the desert plains of Siria, a 400 year old sect was still active in the Ottoman Empire long after its official extinction. Hidden in the shadows and disguised as a bunch of hitmen and thugs, the old Assassins still wandered around, fulfilling the agendas of their unknown masters in the hopes to serve humanity. When they noticed the young Tiberiu and learned of his background, they thought no other one could be better suited to their plans; for they already had plans by virtue of one of their prophecies - the coming of Evil itself incarnated in Vlad Dracula.
Tiberiu was trained as an Assassin and allowed to return to Europe to fulfill his destiny - the lives of him and Vlad Dracula are meeting once more.
| Jereru |
Something like being a Sorcerer in one part of the gestalt but picking Dragon Disciple with the other. But I didn't multiclass anyway (it seemed too much of a hassle to record for Theurgies and Synergies), so it won't matter.
Is the backstory more or less okay, or does something clash with what you had in mind? Also, do we have enough people? Lol.