One of my players has asked to be an Alchemist (Vivisectionist) and I'm a bit unclear on the vivisectionist archetype in Ultimate Magic.
Sneak Attack replaces bombs. That's alright. I'm not a big fan of bombs to be honest, so I'm happy to give them sneak attack instead.
Torturer's Eye gives you an extra extract. But what does this replace? Are you forced to take Deathwatch as your only spell at 2nd level? Or is it an extra extract for free?
Cruel Anatomist is neat. But what is the Alchemist losing in return for this?
Torturous Transformation gives me pause. This is just giving an animal companion to the Alchemist. At 7th level it only lasts a short time and you have to then roll diplomacy or intimidate checks. However at 9th level they gain the ability to have a permanent animal companion that has a good disposition towards them (unless they transform another animal in this manner). How is this going to work from a balance perspective? Also what the heck is the Alchemist loosing in return for all these cool abilities?
Bleeding attack is fine as they lose a discovery.
Crippling Strike is fine as they lose a discovery.
So I'm extremely concerned with Torturous Transformation and I'm puzzled as to what the Alchemist is losing for all the above features. It seems they're getting Sneak Attack and are forced to take a couple of neat rogue talents. In addition they're gaining awesome cool spells for free????
I'd like to add that sneak attack is more powerful in the hands of an alchemist than a rogue, and bombs are limited use only unlike SA.
it's a bit too good, I know paizo isn't overly concerned with balance and it was hinted at that these kind of alchemists tend to be evil ish, so that makes it ok.. since it npc material.. right ?
I didnt really read up on torturous transformation, maybe I should, I ended up kinda just banning it, until I can be bothered to balance it.
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One of my players has asked to be an Alchemist (Vivisectionist) and I'm a bit unclear on the vivisectionist archetype in Ultimate Magic.
Sneak Attack replaces bombs. That's alright. I'm not a big fan of bombs to be honest, so I'm happy to give them sneak attack instead.
Torturer's Eye gives you an extra extract. But what does this replace? Are you forced to take Deathwatch as your only spell at 2nd level? Or is it an extra extract for free?
Cruel Anatomist is neat. But what is the Alchemist losing in return for this?
Torturous Transformation gives me pause. This is just giving an animal companion to the Alchemist. At 7th level it only lasts a short time and you have to then roll diplomacy or intimidate checks. However at 9th level they gain the ability to have a permanent animal companion that has a good disposition towards them (unless they transform another animal in this manner). How is this going to work from a balance perspective? Also what the heck is the Alchemist loosing in return for all these cool abilities?
Bleeding attack is fine as they lose a discovery.
Crippling Strike is fine as they lose a discovery.
So I'm extremely concerned with Torturous Transformation and I'm puzzled as to what the Alchemist is losing for all the above features. It seems they're getting Sneak Attack and are forced to take a couple of neat rogue talents. In addition they're gaining awesome cool spells for free????
Deathwatch is free.
they lose access to all the nice bomb altering discoveries (walking around in cloud kill with poison immunity, dropping 6 incendiary bombs for 36d6 cloud damage, ect))
sneeak attack is way harder to use and more circumstantial than bombs (flanking, flat footed, or denied dex to ac). bombs only have to hit touch ac so sneak attack is weaker for the most part. the extras help make up for that as it becomes more apparant at later levels (harder to hit regular ac with a 3.4 bab character than touch ac)
as for the "companion", dont they only have a couple HD? wont most commoners come running with pitchforks?
vivisectionist is not overpowered at all in itself.
the bomber can hit multiple ennemies, hits touch ac, adds int to damage, chooses damage type, adds extras. Bombs per day are limited.
vivisectionist adds sneak attack, normally in melee, and not against ghosts, can't change energy type. Sneak attacks are not limited per day.
So all in all the vivisectionist is below average, that's what one might think.
However the UC helps the rogue a lot (he needed it), also by awesome options for sneak attack. Here comes the problem: with nonlethal damage the vivisectionist can do 2d6 sneak attack damage per 2 levels, and gains thereby +2 damage on every dice with the investment of 3 feats.
This alone is okay, nonlethal damage, ennemy has to be flat footed, quite circumstantial.
Now comes the overpowered part, the beastmorph alchemist archetype stacks, and at level 14 you will pounce, rake, grab, constrict, all with sneak attacks. There exactly lies a power-nightmare.
My suggestion:
Let him have vivisectionist but not beastmorph (if you plan to play after lvl 14). Pay attention to what he can use out of the UC book, in general there is nothing game breaking, but if he plans a one trick pony that might lessen his fun 50% of the time, and break your encounters the other 50%.
Torturous Transformation isn't giving an animal companion to an Alchemist. Animal companions will follow you anywhere, and get special benefits for doing so.
Awaken will not make an animal equivalent to your level, nor does it guarantee compliance. The awakened creature has free will, it just is friendly toward the caster. One provision is given that it may become unfriendly if it is cast again, but that doesn't mean that is the only thing that will make it unfriendly. As the GM you can have the awakened animal leave if it is being treated poorly, or expected to go on suicide missions. Otherwise, you will see that it will not be terribly game breaking. Besides, every time they cast it, they drop money on it which could be used for something else.
Besides, Sneak attack is not quite as good as Bombs in most situations. Still very useful, but bombs ignore Spell Resistance, and most Damage Resistance, and do not require special conditions for them to be effective, and are highly customizable for damage type, and get splash damage, and can provide spell like effects, and can work as debuffers, and gain a bonus equal to intelligence, which is a necessary alchemist stat to avoid Multiple Ability Dependency. Its okay not to like bombs, but don't underestimate them. The extra abilities of the Vivisectionist were given to offset this deficiency.
Sometimes it is easy to think that a particular ability will upset the game, but it may not. In fact, all of these archetypes have been played before, and only a few have even a reputation of being unbalanced, and this is not one of them. Just make sure your player abides by the rules, and you shouldn't have any problems with him. There are always people on this forum that can help with determining the rules and giving you support.
Basically losing the bomb feature is a major blow to the alchemist, which is not really compensated for - IMHO - by gaining sneak attack.
The alchemist loses his access to many of his discoveries, especially to Dispel Magic (via dispel bomb), cannot do area effect damage anymore, loses battlefield control (via confusion bomb, smoke bomb, tanglefoot bomb, blinding bomb etc. ), and his ability to reliably affect incorporeal targets via force bombs.
These are major deficits of the vivisectionist.
There also is nothing in the description of "Torturous Transformation" that states that the animal is in any way positively inclined, enarmoured or especially loyal to the alchemist due to the process. Think Frankenstein - the alchemist is creating a "one-of-a-kind", and possibly self-aware abomination which will feel very out of place, disoriented because of its visible difference unless a society the transformation happens in, makes it a regular thing to accept "wolf-men" or "leopard-girls" as respected equals in their midsts ?
And at 9th level, there are very few "animals", mind you, not magical beasts that will affect the power balance of an encounter so massively and frequently that they are game-changing and breaking. Mind you, the animal so transformed gains no special advance track (like the druid's animal companion ) or abilities from the process.
So while nifty in some circumstances, usually the only thing this will do, will add a moderately useful, if socially very awkward henchmen to the party, at the price of approximately 7500gp ?
And while "baleful polymorph" and "awaken" are useful tools, they are hampered by the 24 hour casting time (aka surgical procedure), and the fact that they will eventually fall prey to dispel magics (aka "the Great Leveler" ).
BTW, nothing the druid in the party couldn't do absolutely free of charge at the same level, except the same 7500 gp fee for having "anthropomorphic animal" made permanent by an NPC caster.
Anything but "awesome cool"
Yeah, pretty much the Vivi gets kicked in the nards by loosing bomb.
You lost every single bomb related discovery, cause you don't get bombs.
They don't make discoveries for sneak attack, only bombs. So every book that comes out and adds more discoveries for bombs, the more the player lost for choosing this archetype.
You also lose access to many of the other archtypes because of the loss of bombs. No reanimator, clone master etc.
Then yeah.. Most animals don't live past level nine.
Cruel Anatomist.. He is losing really the use of the actual heal skill. So the Chirgun becomes a slightly weaker archtype for him to choose as well.
Most of what he can do, can be replicated by a Druid Wizard or especially sorc with a few scrolls and UMD.
My current top contender for the next character I want to play is a Vivisectionist (an Ustalavian "doctor" of anatomy). I don't get an "overpowered" vibe from him at all, but I figure he is somewhat more powerful than the usual Rogue, what with the spells and mutagen, but there are some subtle drawbacks as well: Lack of proficiency with Rogue weapons (especially the now-important sap!), MAD (the Rogue can put those points into Con or Str rather than Int), and missing out on some neat Rogue Tricks. The Rogue does have access to Shield etc. through UMD.
I'm actually considering changing my doctor to a full Rogue (going down the two-handed, finesse, sap-swinging road) or a bomb-slinging Alchemist instead, haven't decided yet.
What's everyone else's experience with these classes?
Now if Master Chymist could substitute at least partial sneak attack advancement for the increased bomb damage... Vivisectionist Beastmorph Master Chymist?
Now if Master Chymist could substitute at least partial sneak attack advancement for the increased bomb damage... Vivisectionist Beastmorph Master Chymist?
I'm playing a Vivisectionist/Chirugeon Varisian "Doctor" for an upcoming Carrion Crown game. I know how much bomb loss hurts the class, but I love the rp aspect enough that he'll be worth it. Also I don't think by any means will I be gimped or whatever, just not rediculous AoE guy. On an aside, the guy dming has ok'd Master Chymist to stack sneak attack in place of bombs, since APG predated the Vivisectionist archetype and the archetype basically gives a d6 of sneak attack instead of a d6 bomb. I think it is fair overall...
Not remotely overpowered. Even a low level alchemist can toss 10 bombs a day. How many times do you see a rogue sneak attack that often?
Vivisectionist is more of a multiclassing option, a way for Rogue's to gain spellcaster abilities without losing sneak attack.
What's the advantage of taking mostly Rogue levels, though, in that case? I'm getting the impression that the Vivi gains much and loses little compared to the Rogue. Sure, there are some excellent Rogue Tricks like Opportunist, but does that really measure up to being able to cast (sorry -- imbibe) Greater Invisibility?
In fact, I'm thinking of building my Doctor as a Vivisectionist with a single level of Rogue. The loss of BAB would hurt, but I'd get sap proficiency for free, and unbroken SA progression. I could also go for 4 Rogue levels to remove the BAB loss and bag Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. At that point, my spellcasting would be so far behind that I might as well rely on wands of Shield and Mirror Image instead, which I can do as a pure Rogue as well.
Hmmm, I'm starting to see the point of Viv 1/Rog X, or just pure Rogue (maybe with the Poisoner archetype if poisons are reasonably easy to get). :P I would be missing the strong Fort save and the flavor of the Vivi, but hey, can't have everything...
I've been contemplating a PC which starts with two levels of rogue and goes straight vivisectionist/preservationist from there. I'd get evasion, the rogue class skills, and a rogue talent (which I'd probably use for an extra combat feat), and preserve full SA progression. I don't think the hit to my casting is too big a deal (since an alchemist mostly focuses on buffs - taking magical knack would preserve the duration aspect of that), and being a preservationist would allow me to summon a temporary flanking buddy as needed. Plus, I really like the flavor of the character - a rogue with more smarts than he initially lets on.
I noticed Sap Adept doesn't require proficiency in saps. Do you think it might be worthwhile to take the Heirloom Weapon trait to gain proficiency in one specific sap and hope to keep it safe for the character's whole career? It means I couldn't combine it with TWF, though. Then again, later I could get merciful light maces, which work with the feat and don't require a new proficiency.
Seriously, is TWF even more valuable than Sap Adept? The former less than doubles damage output due to the -2 penalty and the fact that it only works in full-round attacks, whereas the 60% extra SA damage from Sap Adept works all the time (as long as there is SA). Maybe I could use Spring Attack instead...? That would also save me the cost of two magic maces rather than just one...