And by rogue I ofcourse mean the Unchained rogue.
Some critical improvements were made that really makes the rogue competitive amoung the mundanes like slayer and even 1/4 casters like ranger (though not Paladin).
Between the effective +8 to hit and +10 to damage, skill unlocks like stealth, and feature reworks, we have a real class on our hands.
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I don't think anyone has ever seriously argued that the URogue doesn't measure up to the Slayer.
Well, the URogue does still have the basic issues inherent to the rogue chassis (only one good save, sneak attack dependence, etc).
Still say Iron Heroes' Executioner is better than Slayer or Unchained Rogue. But then that is 3rd party and made in 3.5 era.
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The trade-offs between them are much narrower than the gulf of playability between CRB Rogue and Slayer, for sure. Though there's something to be said for the Slayer having a very real increase to hit at all times (between +2 at lv 1 and +10 at lv 20)
I'd say the slayer's biggest edge is that it has true BAB and thus gains iteratives faster, plus ranger combat styles (it has other edges as well, like strong Fort and some of its abilities, and the Unchained rogue also has edges over the slayer). Debilitating injury mostly makes up for the accuracy (at earlier levels, it even gives the rogue more accuracy once the injury is active), and any build that would have gotten the most out of the later iteratives if it was a slayer should be fine at landing the first hit as a similarly-built unchained rogue (plus at equivalent accuracy, the rogue lands more damage per hit, so it's those extra iteratives that do pull the slayer ahead).
One of my goals personally when helping with the Unchained rogue (Jason was the lead on all four Unchained classes, but Logan helped with barbarian and I helped a bit with the other three) was to compare it to the slayer and make sure it was still solid, and, as many on the thread have said, I think it is. The original rogue definitely was not competitive with slayer.
Where is the +10 from damage coming from that you are referring to?
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Where is the +10 from damage coming from that you are referring to?4d6 Sneak Attack damage? Not quite 10, but not too far off.
I think that part of the OP was comparing the U-rogue to the original rogue. The +10 damage was probably a reference to dex-to-damage. (only +4 or so at 3, but it's likely at least +10 by 20ish, though I'm not sure that it's that much more than an old rogue's STR would have been)
Yeah, I don't think sneak attack is valid since both Rogues have the same sneak attack progression.
I also thought maybe he meant dex to damage, but as Charon notes that's not necessarily +10 damage difference compared to a strength rogue.
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Yeah, I don't think sneak attack is valid since both Rogues have the same sneak attack progression.
I think that 'My Self' was comparing to the Slayer - and at levels 19-20 the rogue has 4d6 more SA. (Though the Slayer has Studied Target to offset much of the extra 14 damage from higher SA.)
I also thought maybe he meant dex to damage, but as Charon notes that's not necessarily +10 damage difference compared to a strength rogue.
While it doesn't end up being a full +10 more (unless you're using an Elven Curved Blade for 1.5x I suppose) it does also save resources both in stat points & magic item costs - probably the primary reason that dex-to-damage is so freakin' valuable versus just going STR primarily.
This allows you to have your dex (or possibly other stats instead) be higher than a Weapon Finesse build which still needed a decent str for damage, giving you increased accuracy/initiative etc.
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The True BAB and Power Attack, along with other things whose power is based off BAB lead the Slayer ahead.
Depends upon the level & build. At BAB 4-10, PA is awesome for Two-handed combat most of the time, but it starts to fall-off at BAB 11-12, and much more at 16. It makes your last iterative or two miss pretty consistently when making a full attack.
By high level the 1 to 3 ratio just isn't very good against most targets. (accuracy is a % penalty for a numerical bonus - and the % gets bigger at high levels) Before level 4 it doesn't give enough benefit to be worth a feat, and accuracy is usually a major issue at those levels.
Also - I've found that the best Slayer combat style is sword & board TWF, both because Slayers have a lot of inherent static bonus damage, they have the feats for it, and access to Shield Master at 6.
Though I do agree - for a straight brawl the Slayer has the edge. The U-rogue has more other stuff to pretty much make up the difference. Just depends what you're going for.
This kind of feels like a bait thread, on which it is the metaphorical soapbox, to proclaim one's Rogue fetish/fandom/disillusion/defense.
Just, you know, saying the feeling I am getting.
That doesn't work if most people agree with you.
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That doesn't work if most people agree with you.This kind of feels like a bait thread, on which it is the metaphorical soapbox, to proclaim one's Rogue fetish/fandom/disillusion/defense.
Just, you know, saying the feeling I am getting.
...or, you can delude yourself to believe everyone agrees with you.
:)
Depends largely on the build and what you're doing with the character. Unchained Rogue is superior as a skill monkey, and as a dedicated stealthy backstabber it's arguably better as well (though Ninja still trumps it for that), but Slayer is a far superior combatant and doesn't have to rely on Sneak Attack for damage output the way Rogue does.
I really like the Unchained Rogue; it ended my general dislike of Rogues (which was entirely obsolete prior to the Unchained variant), and I'm considering building one with a Gunslinger dip for Skulls & Shackles. But I tend to prefer combat classes over skill monkies (and I now need to make a Vanara Rogue so I have a LITERAL skill monkey), so Slayer is preferable to me.
I think slayers are still better at combat but the unchained rogue is better out of combat. While the level 5 skill unlocks are usually not that good, the level 10 and above have some decent abilities. They also improved some of the rogue talents although there is still a lot of dead weight in them. Getting weapon finesse for free and the ability to get DEX to damage make it so they are not totally useless in a combat.
The big problem with the skill unlocks is that you don’t get the finial one until your character is 20th level. Since most campaign never make it that far, or if they do end soon after you don’t really get a chance to use the 20th level skill unlock. As it stands now rogues now have a crazy number of capstone abilities instead of just one. If they dropped down the level by to 4 for the first one and then every 4 levels after that it would solve the problem. This way you get the finial skill unlock at 16 ranks instead of 20.
I think the old rogue was the second most powerful NPC class after the adept. I think the unchained rogue is now decent enough to be considered a valid PC class.
Unchained Rogue isn't all that bad as a slayer dip, actually. That Dex to damage is a pretty good reason to dip.
Unchained Rogue isn't all that bad as a slayer dip, actually. That Dex to damage is a pretty good reason to dip.
A three level dip is pretty heavy duty though. Especially since slayers are one of the few classes that can skip TWF Dex prereqs and they also get medium armor.
Dip with a slayer is bad because you can rush good things thanks to the Ranger Combat Styles and you also delay your Studied Enemy.
I like going Slayer(Bounty Hunter) to 2 or 3, followed by URogue. You grab all of the proficiencies and the ability to turn your sneak attacks into free Dirty Tricks as the need arises.
Well, outside of PFS, skill unlocks are not a Rogue only thing.
Unchained has so many variants it is hard to keep up with them. I believe the suggested method for others to acquire skill unlocks is the feat, and if I am not mistaken you are only allowed a single skill unlock if you are not a rogue. This makes rogues the only class than can get multiple skill unlocks.
The GM is of course free to change anything he wants, but then he could also give rogues full wizard casting.
I'd love to see options from Unchained Rogue available to Slayer and Investigator.
Like access Finesse Training as Slayer talents.
The numbers say Slayers should TWF with strength and Rogues are the class to TWF with dexterity. But I want to see options for Slayers to TWF with dexterity (as well as strength based options for unchained rogues).
It's the classic DEX to damage being available for more classes argument that I (hopefully) won't start again.
Back on topic. I do believe the unchained rogue is definitely a match for the slayer.
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The original rogue definitely was not competitive with slayer.
You're obviously just a MMO rollplayer who's never played IRL Pathfinder! Go play 4e WoW if you hate rogues so much!
Because a class whose base stats are better should totally get the best stuff from the other class for virtually no cost!I'd love to see options from Unchained Rogue available to Slayer and Investigator.
Like access Finesse Training as Slayer talents.
Your sarcasm aside, the Dex to Damage doors have already been opened to other classes with varying costs (free for unchained rogues; a feat with pre-requisites for swashbucklers etc). So opening this option to other classes all comes down to the opportunity cost used for access.
So it turn's out I agree with you. It should not be for virtually no cost. It should be for an adequate cost that balances the resources used for access with the obtained outcomes.
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Your sarcasm aside, the Dex to Damage doors have already been opened to other classes with varying costs (free for unchained rogues; a feat with pre-requisites for swashbucklers etc). So opening this option to other classes all comes down to the opportunity cost used for access.Because a class whose base stats are better should totally get the best stuff from the other class for virtually no cost!I'd love to see options from Unchained Rogue available to Slayer and Investigator.
Like access Finesse Training as Slayer talents.
Except that the rogue's version is by far the best - the only one which can be used for either TWF or THF, not to mention being far less weapon limited. Therefore - it's worth far more than a feat.
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The Unchained rogue is not an invitation to start another round of everyone stealing the rogue's toys.