Why does pistol whip require a small arm?

[Ravingdork]

You can use a small arm to make a melee attack. Treat this as an attack using Improved Unarmed Strike (whether or not you have that feat), but the attack is not archaic, deals lethal damage, and has the operative weapon special property. If you have an ability that gives you a special version of Weapon Specialization that allows you to add 1-1/2 × your level to natural or unarmed attacks as damage (such as vesk natural weapons), you add your level to pistol whip unarmed strikes; otherwise you add half your level as normal for an operative weapon. When you make an unarmed attack, you must decide before making the attack roll whether you are making a normal unarmed attack or using pistol whip to attack with a small arm.

If this exploit exists, it's proof that unarmed operatives are not unbalanced. So why on earth don't the developers just make an exploit or feat that allows operatives to use their unarmed strikes with their trick attack class ability in similar fashion?

[Isaac Zephyr]

It uses a Small Arm because it's called "Pistol Whip" :P

To the actual question though, the weapon gains the Operative property, reducing the Specialization bonus for +Lvl to +1/2Lvl (or just +Lvl if you're a race with Natural Weapons).

The bigger thing though is you treat the attack with the small arm as if it was an improved unarmed strike. It doesn't have the additional benefits like being able to attack without hands.

Picture this potentially broken scenario: An Operative is holding a Sniper weapon in both hands, and is approached by an enemy. Due to Improved Unarmed he counts as armed and threatening if he has an ally, and can make opportunity attacks despite holding a two handed rifle. On top of that, due to (imaginary unarmed feat goes here) he can now quad attack with his kicks, dealing four unarmed strikes with the +1/2Lvl (or +Lvl for natural weapons making it one of the strongest quad attacks available).

Limiting it to Small Arms essentially allows a Natural Weapons user to take advantage of this very powerful quad attack, without opening it for two-hand weapon users to abuse.

[Ravingdork]

That just doesn't sound all that unbalanced to me. I think I'd have to see the math laid out before I actually believed it.

Full attack penalties alone will keep it from getting too far out of hand.

Also, how would this open up two-hand weapon user abuse? I never said anything about that.

[PawnJJ]

Wow, that exploit is strong. Basically, if you want to play a melee operative, pick one of the races with natural weapons, buy a flare gun and call it a day. Here's a breakdown of average damage between pistol whip, basic and advanced operative weapons using the best weapons for each level.

Lvl Unarmed Basic Advanced
3: 5/ 3.5/ 5.5/
4: 7.5/ 4.5/ 6.5/
5: 8.5/ 4.5/ 6.5/
6: 9.5/ 6.5/ 7.5/
7: 10.5/ 8/ 7.5/
8: 15/ 9/ 17.5/
9: 16/ 11.5/ 17.5/
10: 17/ 12.5/ 18.5/
11: 18/ 14/ 18.5/
12: 22.5/ 16/ 28.5/
13: 23.5/ 18.5/ 28.5/
14: 24.5/ 20.5/ 29.5/
15: 32.5/ 24.5/ 29.5/
16: 33.5/ 29/ 30.5/
17: 34.5/ 33/ 39.5/
18: 35.5/ 36.5/ 40.5/
19: 36.5/ 36.5/ 42/
20: 44.5/ 43/ 43/

Basically only the OP Battle Ribbons can compete with it and doing that requires one specific class (dwarf) or a two feat investment. Plus you can easily afford the cost to support multi-weapon fighting so for pistol whip which you can't even get for the advanced weapons (all but 1 of the ones i used is 2 handed IIRC) so effective damage is much closer together in some cases flipped.

[Isaac Zephyr]

It's not the math that's the abuse with Unarmed Strike, it's the utility (I'm not sure why people don't get this).

Locking it to a Small Arm locks it into a 1-H weapon, meaning it takes a hand. A multi-armed race still has this ability to hold a 2-H weapon and a Small Arm simultaneously, but unless I'm misremembering the Formians no multi-armed race also has Natural Weapons.

The number of things one can hold is a huge deal. Example, I have Improved Unarmed on my Envoy, for a few reasons. One, I wanted to punch things (of course). I'm also a Skyfire Centurion, so I can give it to our Hammer Fist Vesk for the levels the damage is better. Its biggest advantage though, even though I'm human, is I can have my Cruel Dueling Sword in one hand, my Handcannon in the other, and still use Unarmed Strike. (Additional benefit, I could weild two pistols and get the benefit of Multiweapon Fighting while still being armed in melee for opportunity attacks and flanking.)

I can't always afford to upgrade the sword, and enemies will sometimes be wearing armor giving me the -5 to damage making the sword more ideal, but it's a third weapon and opens up a lot of options for my character build.

The 2-H weapon user, or the Sniper Operative, loses the disadvantage of their choice to use a 2-H weapon, in that Improved Unarmed Strike makes them still armed in melee. Essentially giving the benefit a character with multiple limbs would have, without them needing an additional weapon.

Currently the Operative downside with this is that Unarmed Strike isn't Operative. It uses Str for attack roll and can't be used with Quad Attack. They're willing to give it, but the caveat they're giving with Pistol Whip is roundabout saying "This isn't an option for non-multi-arm Snipers." Particularly when you add in Natural Weapons making this about twice as powerful (estimated) than the a average Operative weapon.

Without math, again, the Sniper Operative would be persistently armed with the single handed two strongest Operative options at any given time. Sniper weapons as the only non-small arm they can still do Trick Attacks with (with investment, and even then only status), and (if they have Natural Weapons) the only melee weapon that both has full Specialization and qualifies for Quad Attack.

[Ravingdork]

I'm still not seeing how that's a problem, provided you spent valuable resources/opportunity costs to get it.

[PawnJJ]

Ravingdork wrote:

That...seems pretty comparable to me. As you said, some levels it's stronger, and others it is not.

For 90 credits and one exploit, I can have a melee weapon that is better than any basic operative weapon from level 2 to 20

For 180 credits, one exploit and one feat, I am comparable to 2 feats and a Million credits worth of weapons. The only reason they can even be compared is because its going up against the battle ribbon which is banned in society play. (It actually makes sense that they are comparable. Pistol whip uses operative weapon damage with normal weapon spec damage while the ribbon is normal non operative weapon damage with operative weapon spec damage)

[Isaac Zephyr]

Ravingdork wrote:

I'm still not seeing how that's a problem, provided you spent valuable resources/opportunity costs to get it.

The resources cost is only 1.

In the case of Pistol Whip, it's one Operative choice for essentially getting a free feat with the caviat you don't get all of it. So if you're Multi-armed, you can add one choice to your Sniper and have it.

Putting that aside though, it would also take significant value out of anyone who wanted to build a multi-armed Operative if the same benefit could be achieved by a feat and a class option (assuming your imaginary unarmed option still required you to have Improved Unarmed Strike). It basically says "That thing you wanted to do? Well I can be a Vesk, do more damage, and do it too."

If they ever release a Multi-armed + Natural Weapons race it would do the same thing in devaluing every other choice.

[PawnJJ]

@Isaac

Your Sniper could just use one of his armor slots for the shoulder laser (integrated 1 small arms) to get the utility that you're looking for.

[Isaac Zephyr]

PawnJJ wrote:

@Isaac

Your Sniper could just use one of his armor slots for the shoulder laser (integrated 1 small arms) to get the utility that you're looking for.

I don't have a Sniper, but also semi-true.

You are very correct on the other point though of the massive cost difference between an essentially free weapon.

That is a question though, could you pistol whip with an integrated weapon?

[PawnJJ]

Isaac Zephyr wrote:

I don't have a Sniper, but also semi-true.

You are very correct on the other point though of the massive cost difference between an essentially free weapon.

That is a question though, could you pistol whip with an integrated weapon?

I meant your sniper example :P

Rules wise, i don't see why not. thematically though... eh picturing someone shoulder butting people for trick attack damage is pretty awesome.

Looking at the item description though

Quote:

This laser weapon has a smooth, curved housing and an eyelike aperture, and it can be installed in an armor upgrade slot, leaving the wielder’s hands free for other tasks. As the name implies, most users mount the eyelike aperture over one shoulder, but it can work just as easily mounted on the torso or a forearm. Many shoulder laser users are androids who integrate them into their bodies as emergency weapons. Azimuth, corona, aphelion, and perihelion shoulder lasers are available in most areas.

I suppose it could still make sense

[BigNorseWolf]

To avoid certain lawsuits