This is going to be horrible to run as written.
At the moment, hitting 0 HP doesn't mean much. You're very likely to be brought back into the fight, via hero point, saving throw, or healing.
Smart enemies with enough invested in the fight to be willing to kill, which is most enemies, will therefore start attacking unconscious characters to prevent this. I feel that a system that lets people get up so easily is actually going to massively increase lethality against sensibly-played opponents. I like my PCs to survive long enough to have stories build up, and having 0 HP be a death sentence feels bad.
Can we please not have a system that dictates sensible enemies focus on grinding PCs out of existence? Make it slow to get back up naturally, and healing to require a bit more effort to get you also conscious.
I scribbled up a much simpler version of dying that fixes this in my eyes here. They might be oversimple, but I feel more comfortable running these than the actual playtest rules.
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Wasn't this equally true in other editions if there was a healer in the group? Somehow most GMs found a reason not to coup de grace everyone all the time.
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At the moment, hitting 0 HP doesn't mean much. You're very likely to be brought back into the fight, via hero point, saving throw, or healing.
If you don't have a healer, it's not going to happen. Naturally you wake up after 10 minutes or longer.
It's a waste of time for an intelligent opponent to hit a downed opponent if there's no healer.
Lots of PCs have already failed to make recovery rolls and died, so even survival is not guaranteed. In the errata they even increased the DC of administer first aid, the same skill that's already killed 2 PCs in my playtest.
Rule 2.
At the moment, hitting 0 HP doesn't mean much. You're very likely to be brought back into the fight, via hero point, saving throw, or healing.If you don't have a healer, it's not going to happen. Naturally you wake up after 10 minutes or longer.
It's a waste of time for an intelligent opponent to hit a downed opponent if there's no healer.
Lots of PCs have already failed to make recovery rolls and died, so even survival is not guaranteed. In the errata they even increased the DC of administer first aid, the same skill that's already killed 2 PCs in my playtest.
I saw the 10 minutes line. It seems to conflict with the sentence on page 1:
"When you lose the dying condition, you regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round."My conclusion is that the 10-minute clause only applies to things that specifically end dying without giving consciousness, like Stabilise.
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Wasn't this equally true in other editions if there was a healer in the group? Somehow most GMs found a reason not to coup de grace everyone all the time.
In PF1:
* A character that went down was often dead already. Enemies could know this and know that checking would frequently be a waste of time. In PF2, the target is never dead already, they should always check &/or finish them.* Healing was almost all melee. Simply being between the corpse and healer meant you could get on with fighting without finishing the downed target. In PF2, you can heal too easily from anywhere, meaning enemies had better finish that target.
* Characters almost never regained consciousness automatically. In PF2 it's possible this should take 10 minutes, but my reading (post above) sees it as happening immediately upon losing dying. This is a big issue for enemies, especially since it's close-ish to 50/50 if you will get up or die. Definitely worth finishing targets.
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* A character that went down was often dead already.
If your goal is to allow PCs to survive long enough to have stories build up, then the reduced chance of instant death seems like a good thing.
In PF2, the target is never dead already, they should always check &/or finish them.
Only if the enemies know that the PCs are PCs, because of this rule: "When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die, unless the attack was nonlethal"
* A character that went down was often dead already.If your goal is to allow PCs to survive long enough to have stories build up, then the reduced chance of instant death seems like a good thing.
Yes! This is the good bit of the rules.
In PF2, the target is never dead already, they should always check &/or finish them.Only if the enemies know that the PCs are PCs, because of this rule: "When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die, unless the attack was nonlethal"
I take that to 'most' is 'monster creatures', excluding most human/other-ancestry race NPCs.
Since taking prisoners is a big part of roleplay and learning what enemies are up to, I think that 'most' really needs to be clarified.
Taking prisoners is what nonlethal damage is for.
It's probably meant to be something similar to the 5e rule: "Most DMs have a monster die at 0HP rather than having it fall unconscious... Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions."
Things like bandits tend to drop dead instantly, to prevent the "should we execute the prisoners" dilemma.
I have the opposite viewpoint to the OP: this is going to make character death more rare. This is because the rules no longer include a coup de grâce mechanic, as far as I can see. So it looks like the very worst an enemy can do is bring you to dying 2 with a critical. Further hits don't make the condition worse, at most they increase the recovery DC, and that is only if the new attack was more powerful than the one that brought you down.
...Which looks to me like a mistake. I think a new hit should increase the dying condition by 1 (2 on a crit), but that's not what update 1.1 says.
EDIT: On second thought, with 3 actions per round that would make it far too easy to kill characters, especially if downed by the first attack. I guess that would be realistic, but not very fun. On the other hand, there currently seems to be no way to finish off a downed character, you have to wait until he dies on his own. I don't know what the right solution is, but hey, I'm not the game designer here...
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You're not wrong there... but the idea that it's impossible to kill someone unconcious if they keep beating their fort save DC sounds hilarious and an obvious mistake.
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The lack of a Coup' De Grace action is likely for the same reason as the lack of a Sunder action... Players rarely use them, and hate having them used on them... so they aren't vital to the genre emulation.
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If a player wanted to 'double tap' an enemy: I would rule Coup-De-Grace was a 3-part activity requiring a lethal attack, and that it worked automatically on NPCs. If used on PCs, they would be allowed a Fortitude Save versus the Recovery DC of the Coup-De-Grace with the following results:
Critical Success: Your dying value remains the same.
Success: Your dying value increases by 1.
Failure: Your dying value increases by 2.
Critical Failure: Your dying value increases by 3.
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Yes but the main issue is that with the new update, even a "coup de grâce" would not increase you dying value
You misunderstand... I'm not talking about simply having them 'Strike' a dying enemy, which would indeed only result in the target gaining a nonstacking condition. I stipulated a New Action that increased the existing dying condition per the wording used in the recovery save section.
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I fully agree. We need something to increase dying value.
I saw the 10 minutes line. It seems to conflict with the sentence on page 1:
"When you lose the dying condition, you regain consciousness, but are slowed for 1 round."My conclusion is that the 10-minute clause only applies to things that specifically end dying without giving consciousness, like Stabilise.
Good catch, I think that's just poor wording on their part.
They say this in multiple places: "If you return to 1 Hit Point or more, you become conscious."
The full Unconscious paragraph being here:
When you’re reduced to 0 Hit Points, you fall unconscious. You lose any remaining actions and reactions, and while unconscious, you don’t regain your actions and reaction each turn. If you return to consciousness, you’ll need to wait until the start of your turn to get your actions and reaction again.
If you return to 1 Hit Point or more, you become conscious. As noted before, if you had the dying condition, you are slowed on your first turn after regaining consciousness. If you did not have the dying condition when you regain consciousness, you aren’t slowed.
When you’re unconscious and at 0 HP but no longer dying, you naturally return to 1 HP and awaken after sufficient time passes. The GM determines how long you remain unconscious, from at least 10 minutes to several hours.
From that it seems clear.
I fully agree. We need something to increase dying value.
I didn't see the new rules change that, it's the same as the playtest document. If you hit an enemy who is dying and unconscious, it's quite easy to crit them an increase their dying by 2.
Taking Damage while Dying
If you take damage while you’re already unconscious, apply the same effects as if you had been knocked out by that damage, except you don’t move your initiative position. If you were already dying and the recovery save DC for the new damage is higher than your current recovery save DC, start using the higher DC.
If you apply the same effects as if you had been knocked out, you increase the Dying condition.
They should really be more explicit and give examples.
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As a GM, I've always run intelligent opponents to prevent people getting back up again, not by killing downed characters, but by going after the healers...
Taking Damage while Dying
If you take damage while you’re already unconscious, apply the same effects as if you had been knocked out by that damage, except you don’t move your initiative position. If you were already dying and the recovery save DC for the new damage is higher than your current recovery save DC, start using the higher DC.
If you apply the same effects as if you had been knocked out, you increase the Dying condition.
They should really be more explicit and give examples.
No, per the rule for being knocked out by lethal damage you "gain dying 1". Which per the rules for conditions doesn't stack with the dying condition you're already suffering. It never says anywhere to increase your dying level by 1 if you're already dying instead. Currently per RAW it is impossible to actually Coup-De-Grace a dying creature.
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Taking prisoners is what nonlethal damage is for.
It's probably meant to be something similar to the 5e rule: "Most DMs have a monster die at 0HP rather than having it fall unconscious... Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions."
Things like bandits tend to drop dead instantly, to prevent the "should we execute the prisoners" dilemma.
I agree, but the rules should just come out and actually say this instead of using weak, open to many interpretations, language.
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No, per the rule for being knocked out by lethal damage you "gain dying 1".
You are completely correct, I didn't notice that they changed it. Why would they do that? Argghhhhhhh....
If the attack was lethal, you gain the dying 1 condition. If you already had the dying condition, instead increase your dying condition by 1. If the attack was a critical hit, you gain the dying 2 condition (or increase your dying condition by 2).
If the damage came from a lethal source, you gain the dying 1 condition. If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the dying 2 condition instead. If the damage came from a nonlethal attack or effect, you don’t gain the dying condition, but you are still unconscious with 0 Hit Points.
It seems every time we see progress in some area, we regress in others.
The other huge problem being that Administer First Aid scales with level.
No, per the rule for being knocked out by lethal damage you "gain dying 1".You are completely correct, I didn't notice that they changed it. Why would they do that?
To keep NPCs from killing PCs while they're down?
Allowing coup de grace is realistic, but rarely fun.
I don't need permission for my NPCs to arbitrarially kill PCs. If I needed em dead, they'd be dead. The lack of Coup-De-Grace (and other abusable actions) really only punishes the player, but admitedly in almost nonexistant circumstances.
Blaming the mechanic for how bad GM's abuse it is like blaming food for making people fat.
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No, per the rule for being knocked out by lethal damage you "gain dying 1".You are completely correct, I didn't notice that they changed it. Why would they do that?To keep NPCs from killing PCs while they're down?
Allowing coup de grace is realistic, but rarely fun.
What's fun is the tension that a coup-de-grâce situation can generate, but that only works if it's well managed by the DM - and also, not too frequent.
I don't normally insist on the need for realistic rules. But, as written right now, we could have six great wyrms breathing fire on an unconscious character and the result would still be, dying 2. That's taking the lack of realism a tad too far.
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No, per the rule for being knocked out by lethal damage you "gain dying 1". Which per the rules for conditions doesn't stack with the dying condition you're already suffering. It never says anywhere to increase your dying level by 1 if you're already dying instead. Currently per RAW it is impossible to actually Coup-De-Grace a dying creature.
Taking Damage while Dying
If you take damage while you’re already unconscious, apply the same effects as if you had been knocked out by that damage, except you don’t move your initiative position. If you were already dying and the recovery save DC for the new damage is higher than your current recovery save DC, start using the higher DC.
If you apply the same effects as if you had been knocked out, you increase the Dying condition.
They should really be more explicit and give examples.
THANKS!!!!
I posted the issues just after the errata went live and it seems nobody reacted.It is an issue.
You're not wrong there... but the idea that it's impossible to kill someone unconcious if they keep beating their fort save DC sounds hilarious and an obvious mistake.
This. So much this.
At the very least, taking damage while unconscious should force a new, immediate Fort save with a higher DC.Just something that makes it not 100% sure you'll just wake up in 10 minutes to a few hours, depending on how nice your GM is...
EDIT: On second thought, with 3 actions per round that would make it far too easy to kill characters, especially if downed by the first attack. I guess that would be realistic, but not very fun. On the other hand, there currently seems to be no way to finish off a downed character, you have to wait until he dies on his own. I don't know what the right solution is, but hey, I'm not the game designer here...
The right solution for me is to bring back some kind of coup-de-grâce action: have it take 3 actions (so a full round) to make a Strike against an unconscious target.
If the strike hits, they get a Fort save and must beat the result of the attack roll for their save DC.If it works, the target is bolstered for 24 hours.
If it fails, the target dies.
Obviously my suggestion is not perfect but it's a start.
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I agree, but the rules should just come out and actually say this instead of using weak, open to many interpretations, language.Taking prisoners is what nonlethal damage is for.
It's probably meant to be something similar to the 5e rule: "Most DMs have a monster die at 0HP rather than having it fall unconscious... Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions."
Things like bandits tend to drop dead instantly, to prevent the "should we execute the prisoners" dilemma.
They have - not sure this could be more explicit "NPCs die on reaching 0hp unless nonlethal damage or the GM says otherwise".
When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die, unless the attack was nonlethal, in which case they are knocked out for a significant amount of time (usually 1 minute or more). When undead and construct creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they are destroyed. Player characters don’t automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out. Villains, powerful monsters, enemies with healers or regeneration, and any other NPCs at the GM’s discretion are knocked out like a PC as well.
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There is no need for coupe-de-grace. Previously when you were hit when you were down, you would almost always crit and Dying would increase by 2, making it very easy to die. They just need to bring that back.
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Between additional damage no longer being able to increase one's dying condition and the hero points, the PCs are practically immortal.
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Then why are so many playtesters reporting deaths and TPKs?
Then why are so many playtesters reporting deaths and TPKs?
most of the reported TPKs predate the new rules. Even under the old rules dying is normally quite hard. I suspect a combination of forgetting hero points and/or either poison or persistent damage. Hero points will save you from a nasty crit, but won't save you from ongoing damage. If you have no healing a few bad rolls and being on fire will kill you even with hero points.
Then why are so many playtesters reporting deaths and TPKs?most of the reported TPKs predate the new rules. Even under the old rules dying is normally quite hard. I suspect a combination of forgetting hero points and/or either poison or persistent damage. Hero points will save you from a nasty crit, but won't save you from ongoing damage. If you have no healing a few bad rolls and being on fire will kill you even with hero points.
So this version of the game is flawless then?
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It's flawless as a game where the best way to coup de grace a helpless opponent is to perform first-aid on them.
It's flawless as a game where the best way to coup de grace a helpless opponent is to perform first-aid on them.
I had two PCs die from this. And now the administer first aid DC is higher. Sigh.
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It's flawless as a game where the best way to coup de grace a helpless opponent is to perform first-aid on them.I had two PCs die from this. And now the administer first aid DC is higher. Sigh.
Yeah, it makes no sense that a dragon actively biting you doesn't cause you to die faster, but your own party trying to do first aid can instantly kill you.
Or that persistent damage just never goes away unless you roll high enough, so you can be killed by a minor acid burn when you can't be killed by a dragon full attacking you while you're unconscious.
I get that we're not aiming for realism here, but suspension of disbelief can only go so far when dealing with something this ludicrous...
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Darkness has fallen heavy on the haunted mansion. The undead have fought our adventurers for hours. The cleric has been split from his group, and as they rush to get back to him, he lays unconcious and dying between two powerful, evil, demented shades, ready to consume his soul once he passes on. One swipes down with a semi-spectral claw, the other cries out in rage,
"Gosh darn it, Harold, stop hitting him, you keep setting him back to Dying 1. We have to wait for him to bleed out."
"But Geooooorge, he's really good at death saves, and failing three in a row takes forever. If we don't kill him he'll get back up and full HP the entire party, we have to finish him."
"Well then, Harold, fine. Try administering first aid. If you mess it up enough you might make him die faster. I think you should be able to choose to get a nat 1 like that."
"But Geoooorge, I'm a high power force of evil. My level bonus to medicine means I don't crit fail on a nat 1. I'm way too good at medicine for that."
"Harold. You're a manifestation of darkness and hatred. How are you good at applying first aid to dwarves. You don't even have organs. Sigh. Fine. Do we have any level 0 minions about to try first aid on this guy?"
All right, the issue with the absurd resilience at the dying 2 level has been fixed in update 1.2. Now if you hit a dying character, the condition increases by 1, or 2 with a crit. That makes sense.
... And it's going to lead to much increased mortality, if enemies hate the PCs enough and decide to use a couple actions to finish the unconscious off.
Which is fine, if the enemies are encouraged to fight the party before going for the down targets.
In PF1, this was accomplished by most healing options being touch/melee range, and attack of opportunities making effective area denial so that an enemy can run up to the cleric to fight them, and the cleric can't easily go and 'pick back up' the unconcious character. Since it's difficult to get them back up, no reason to finish them.
But now ranged healing is easy, and throws them right into the fight.
In my Homebrew games, I am going to rule that non-melee healing leaves the target unconcious, until something shakes them to conciousness as an action. That means area denial can still be a thing (although tougher without AoOs), so enemies feel less need to finish players.
In Doomsday Dawn, I'll continue to run as written and see how it feels.
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Quote: Taking Damage while Dying If you take damage while you’re already unconscious, increase your dying value by 1; if you take damage from an attacker’s critical hit or from your own critical failure, increase your dying value by 2 instead. If you were already dying and the recovery save DC for the new damage is higher than your current recovery save DC, start using the higher DC. A nonlethal attack or effect doesn’t increase your dying value, but it can increase the DC of your recovery saves.
I don't get it. If you get hit while dying, you get worse. What are people talking about?
All right, the issue with the absurd resilience at the dying 2 level has been fixed in update 1.2. Now if you hit a dying character, the condition increases by 1, or 2 with a crit. That makes sense.
... And it's going to lead to much increased mortality, if enemies hate the PCs enough and decide to use a couple actions to finish the unconscious off.
That's going to happen a lot less than persistent damage or AOEs finishing off dying PCs who aren't actually being targeted after they drop.
Quote: Taking Damage while Dying If you take damage while you’re already unconscious, increase your dying value by 1; if you take damage from an attacker’s critical hit or from your own critical failure, increase your dying value by 2 instead. If you were already dying and the recovery save DC for the new damage is higher than your current recovery save DC, start using the higher DC. A nonlethal attack or effect doesn’t increase your dying value, but it can increase the DC of your recovery saves.
I don't get it. If you get hit while dying, you get worse. What are people talking about?
Update 1.1 had dying rules that didn't have anything like that, taking damage in 1.1 just put you at dying 1/2, never increased it beyond that, and actually 'healed you' if you were at dying 3.
That's going to happen a lot less than persistent damage or AOEs finishing off dying PCs who aren't actually being targeted after they drop.All right, the issue with the absurd resilience at the dying 2 level has been fixed in update 1.2. Now if you hit a dying character, the condition increases by 1, or 2 with a crit. That makes sense.
... And it's going to lead to much increased mortality, if enemies hate the PCs enough and decide to use a couple actions to finish the unconscious off.
Maybe, maybe not. Any monster who's simply attacking out of hunger will probably take a bite out of the downed PC. Then there's zombies ("brains!"). Either way, this looks like being down is more dangerous than it was in PF1... Something I rather like, come to think of it. In PF1, there were many situations where falling unconscious was better than staying up with low HPs. PF2 fights will be more credible, and with higher stakes. A good change.