Untrained Proficiency Modifier

[JW Carroll]

Forgive me if this has been covered already but based on my reading of the RAW the proficiency modifier for untrained traits makes very little sense.

From p 15 under Step 7 "...subtract the proficiency modifier (your level-2) from the relevant ability modifier..."

As written a level 1 character would use the following equation to determine their skill modifier with a relevant ability modifier of 0: 0-(1-2) or 0-(-1) or 1. This is the same modifier as a proficient character. Following through on this a 20th level character would have a skill modifier of 0-(20-2) or -18 making a 20th level character worse at an untrained action than he was at first level.

As this makes almost no sense (I suppose you could justify it as higher level characters being more hyper specialized) I have to assume that an untrained character is supposed to have a proficiency modifer of their level-2 instead of their level so a first level character has a proficiency modifier of -1 and a 20th of +18. This is logical but it seems to me that without some serious DC inflation you are going to have PCs of even moderate level that will be able to crush almost any skill challenge presented to them and that PCs that rely heavily on skills (namely rogues) are going to become largely redundant.

As a possible fix I'm considering for my own game adding level/2 as the proficiency modifier for untrained skills...though I'm waiting to see how much things like class features add as I read more of the rules.

[Zman0]

Yes, Proficiency is Level + Proficient Bonus(-2, 0, +1, +2, +3).

So an untrained 1st level character will have a -1 proficiency. A lvl 20 will have an 18 untrained.

There are plenty of threads started about this very topic. Not just in relation to skills, but in relation to AC, Saves, To hit, etc.

There are plenty of people defending +level. There are plenty of people advocating for softening it down to +1/2level. There are plenty of people(myself included) advocated for removing the +level.

I've already gone and wrote up a working version of rules for Bound P2, ie no +level. I am also very much hoping we can get Paizo to include it as an official variant in the game with at least a sidebar and hopefully more widespread support.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

The subtraction bit is garbage. Calculate the untrained numbers exactly the same way as TEML numbers.

[Luceon]

JW Carroll wrote:

Forgive me if this has been covered already but based on my reading of the RAW the proficiency modifier for untrained traits makes very little sense.

From p 15 under Step 7 "...subtract the proficiency modifier (your level-2) from the relevant ability modifier..."

As written a level 1 character would use the following equation to determine their skill modifier with a relevant ability modifier of 0: 0-(1-2) or 0-(-1) or 1. This is the same modifier as a proficient character. Following through on this a 20th level character would have a skill modifier of 0-(20-2) or -18 making a 20th level character worse at an untrained action than he was at first level.

As this makes almost no sense (I suppose you could justify it as higher level characters being more hyper specialized) I have to assume that an untrained character is supposed to have a proficiency modifer of their level-2 instead of their level so a first level character has a proficiency modifier of -1 and a 20th of +18. This is logical but it seems to me that without some serious DC inflation you are going to have PCs of even moderate level that will be able to crush almost any skill challenge presented to them and that PCs that rely heavily on skills (namely rogues) are going to become largely redundant.

As a possible fix I'm considering for my own game adding level/2 as the proficiency modifier for untrained skills...though I'm waiting to see how much things like class features add as I read more of the rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA