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The following would fix many complaints about the ancestry system and will help the Half-races feel more useful.
Start by renaming ancestry feats to ancestry traits. Using the word feat makes it seem like they should be equivalent to class feats in terms of power which most of them are not.
Give us all of our ancestry feats at 1st level (which IIRC, would be 5). This does two things, first will allow the ancestries to actually feel different at 1st level. As it stands most ancestries feel exactly the same at 1st level. Second, the half-humans actually become worthwhile. As it currently stands a half-human does not become an actual half-human until 9th level. At first level they have no ancestry, at 5th level they become a human, orc or elf and at 9th level they can finally be a mixture of the two. I have played many many characters that never made it to 9th level, so I can assume many players will never gain any benefit from the half-human option.
Make some abilities cost two traits. There are currently some ancestry options that give you a free feat. Make these abilities and others of similar power cost 2 traits instead of 1. Similarly, make all of the non-level 1 traits cost 2 instead of 1. This allows for interesting choices without making one ancestry seem way better then others. just because a particular trait that ancestry has access too is more powerful then the ones offered by other ancestries. For symmetry make the feat that gives you ancestry traits 2 instead of 1. You also avoid the oddity that low level NPCs of two different races should technically be nearly identical in terms of abilities outside of stats.
Heritage Feats can stay as heritage traits. This bars them from later being taken by the feat that gives you ancestry traits.
Normalize the base abilities of all of the ancestries. As it stands dwarves technically get more than everyone else and halflings decidedly get less then everyone else. Small Size should either provide a definitive mechanical benefit, or the small races need to be compensated with some other static bonus. Dwarves either need to lose an ability, or all other races need to get an additional static ability to put them on par with dwarves. Halflings need all of the above and an additional ability, as it stands they are weaker then everyone else as they are basically small humans that get a penalty and don't even get to count as human.
At a bare minimum, one extra feat at first level that can be either a general feat or an ancestry feat would take care of the basics for most characters who are either adopted or half something other than human.
There would still be hard choices to make, but at least we could avoid the absurdity of not getting something that supposedly was part of your upbringing until 5th level.
One question I would have would be about the lack of ancestry feats above level 5. Do they not plan to have higher level ancestry feats, or did they not feel the need to playtest them? If they honestly cannot come up with any ancestry feats beyond 5th level, that should call into question the whole idea of an ancestry feat track as they have now.
Honestly? I'd like to see something like the following:
At 1st level you get your Ancestry's starting benefits and Ability Boosts, -two- free Ability Boosts (not four), and five Ancestry Traits. Like LordKalias suggested, some Traits cost 2 points because they're stronger. Maybe reduce it to 3 traits if that's too many choices.
At 2nd level you get your Background's Ability Boosts, Skill Feat, Lore Training, and -one- additional Ability Boost. Maybe move one or two of your starting Skills here as well, divorce them a bit from Class. In additional, your Background gives you a few Hit Points as well, just like your Ancestry and Class.
At 3rd level you get your Class' Ability Boost, -one- additional Ability Boost, and their starting Class Features. Make those starting features bigger and more impactful as well.
This change both increases the speed of character creation and sets up a starting 'adventurer' at 3rd level, and with (probably) around 24 + triple CON starting Hit Points. A Level 1 character is a regular person without significant training but with tons of potential in their future. A Level 2 character has 'graduated' from their profession's training; the Blacksmith's apprentice becomes a full Blacksmith, the Street Urchin has learned the ins and outs of the city's underworld. A Level 3 character thus decides their calling; they connect with a Deity on a fundamental level, they dedicate themselves to martial training, they find their inner rage.
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I really don't get why so many people think half-races have a hard time. Especially half elves have access to a huge amount of feats and can be skilled so different to make them feel unique and distinct from elves and humans.
I don't agree with the assumtion that Ancestories need a fix in the first place. There is nothing wrong with it in my opinion. And by that I mean the general approach. There can be argued about the powerlevel of the available feats.
I really don't get why so many people think half-races have a hard time. Especially half elves have access to a huge amount of feats and can be skilled so different to make them feel unique and distinct from elves and humans.
I don't agree with the assumtion that Ancestories need a fix in the first place. There is nothing wrong with it in my opinion. And by that I mean the general approach. There can be argued about the powerlevel of the available feats.
I honestly don't follow your reasoning.
At level 1 I spend my only ancestry feat in order to "count" as both elf and human (for example).
Statwise, I am at this point identical to a human, but I don't get any abilities that distinguish me as being a human. Then at 5th level I get an ancestry feat from either elf or human. Taking one of these makes me the same as an elf or human but that's it. At 9th level I can take another ancestry feat and finally have 1 from human and 1 from elf making me a true half-breed.
It seems weird that I can't reap any benefits from being a half-elf until 9th level. What I have I missed?
Statwise, I am at this point identical to a human, but I don't get any abilities that distinguish me as being a human. Then at 5th level I get an ancestry feat from either elf or human. Taking one of these makes me the same as an elf or human but that's it. At 9th level I can take another ancestry feat and finally have 1 from human and 1 from elf making me a true half-breed.
It seems weird that I can't reap any benefits from being a half-elf until 9th level. What I have I missed?
You completely missed that taking the half-elf heritage feat doesn't just open up new feats. You actually get already benefits from the feat itself. Increased movement and dim light vision for example and to be honest that's better than most feats that are available for humans. Saying that's nothing is the understatement of the year.
Lvl 5 you can have 40 movement as a half-elf. Or 35 and an extra class feat. Half-elves are probably the strongest race in the game in terms of how much they can benefit from their ancestry.
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I think a 'point buy system' for ancestry feats is a bit crunchy.
Some ancestry feats feel too powerful for level 1 though...
My proposed solution is
2 ancestry feats at level one
1 ancestry feat at level two
Then the current playtest progression.
Some of the 'too powerful' level 1 ancestry feats get a level 2 pre-requisite.
Basically I like the playtest idea of progressing in ancestry, but I do feel like it should be somewhat more frontloaded.
You completely missed that taking the half-elf heritage feat doesn't just open up new feats. You actually get already benefits from the feat itself. Increased movement and dim light vision for example and to be honest that's better than most feats that are available for humans. Saying that's nothing is the understatement of the year.
Lvl 5 you can have 40 movement as a half-elf. Or 35 and an extra class feat. Half-elves are probably the strongest race in the game in terms of how much they can benefit from their ancestry.
Thank you :)
I kept reading the "playing a half-elf" and "playing a half-orc" sections and assumed the feat would just parrot what these sections were saying. Especially when I was seeing suggestions that these feats needed to give you a talent in addition to just opening talents up. So, I was under the impression that there was no immediate benefit.
I'm not sure how you're getting to a 40 movement as a half-elf. I'm only seeing 35 since you start at 25, the half-elf trait can only boost it up to 30 (even if you take it twice) and the nimble trait only pushes it up to a 35.
If the system I'm suggesting above were implemented I agree that the half-human traits should probably cost 2 traits each.
You get extra 5 feet from a general feat. You can get that as a human too though.
You get extra 5 feet from a general feat. You can get that as a human too though.
but that isn't unique to half-elves. It just means that half-elves can have a movement rate that is the same as what elves can get. I don't see an issue with that. The way you worded it, it sounded as though half-elves were doing something unique.
Having 10 more movement and still access to all the human ancestries is unique. I was just pointing out how crazy it can get.
so, then you agree with my fix. :)
If what I proposed were implemented at 1st level you would get 5 traits. If you want half-elf you're down by 2, you can now either pick nimble (which would cost 2, since it literally does the same thing as a feat), or the bonus feat and either way you would only have 1 point left to spend and would be unable to pick both. Thereby bringing it inline with both pure humans and pure elves.
so, then you agree with my fix. :)
Not at all. I think, as so many others, you approach this new system from a bad angle by wanting to have the same things that you had in the previous edition. I can get that. It fells like something has been taken away.
But the opposite is the case. Over the course of your career you can get basically everything you had in the previous edition but it doesn't limit you to that. You can diversify your character.Now that's something you want as well. The difference is that you want everything from the start and I don't. From my point of view it is a good way to keep the races balanced and adds to characterprogression.
There is no fix needed. And the fact that you didn't even know how the half-X feats work when you created this thread doesn't really help your case.
Not at all. I think, as so many others, you approach this new system from a bad angle by wanting to have the same things that you had in the previous edition. I can get that. It fells like something has been taken away.
But the opposite is the case. Over the course of your career you can get basically everything you had in the previous edition but it doesn't limit you to that. You can diversify your character.
Now that's something you want as well. The difference is that you want everything from the start and I don't. From my point of view it is a good way to keep the races balanced and adds to characterprogression.There is no fix needed. And the fact that you didn't even know how the half-X feats work when you created this thread doesn't really help your case.
I'm approaching it from an angle of balance and am applying my experience from other rpgs which may include but are not exclusive to P1.
I will explain my reasoning behind each change and will not base any of it on what happend in P1.
Start by renaming ancestry feats to ancestry traits.
This a a pure change in nomenclature. Ancestry feats represent skills and abilities based on your character's ancestry. These are different from class feats and general feats which represent character development via experience. So, it makes sense to call them something different. Additionally, the class feats and general feats tend to grant larger bonuses than what these traits give you. Looking at elf I notice that only a few ancestry feats seem to be on par with general feats and/or class abilities. Since there is generally a power difference then it makes sense to rename them to something other than feats.
Give us all of our ancestry feats at 1st level (which IIRC, would be 5).
Ancestry represents a combination of genetics and how you were raised, Nature & Nurture if you will. I am assuming that my character is considered an adult. That may represent a different number of years depending on the ancestry in question but an adult none the less. This means that what ever effects nature and nurture have had on my character have happened. It therefore does not make sense to me that my character would suddenly develop an ability based on biology or how they were raised after they've become an adult as a result of adventuring.
This not only does not happen in the real world but it doesn't even happen in other gaming systems I've played. The only way it might make sense is if my character was some kind of mutant who's genetic makeup does not follow the "norm". The problem is even in game systems were you do literally play as a mutant (say paladium's heroes unlimited or tmnt), you get a number of points to spend on traits at character creation and you never get more as you level.
Sure, maybe at 5th level my elf returned home and was taught the ancient fighting secrets that are only taught to an elf after they have proven themselves. The thing is this training doesn't really represent the character's ancestry. A human who is either very cleverly disguised or has earned the sufficient accolades/honors could receive the same training and reap the same benefits. This sort of training is therefore better represented as a general feat with a story requirement.
If there is a balance issue with all of the ancestry bonuses being front loaded then make us choose a number of flaws as well to balance things (say 5 traits and 4 flaws).
Make some abilities cost two traits.
As has already been pointed out in multiple places some ancestry feats are better then others. In fact some of them are as powerful as general feats. Since we are following the previous implementation of front loading all of our ancestry traits, we can use this to our advantage in order to balance things. We can make these traits cost double. Now instead of just every player picking the best traits which leads to less diversity, we have added an additional cost to these allowing for more choice. Pointing out that a particular trait is more powerful then I previously thought just means that it now falls into the category of costing double. I don't need to read every single trait in order to make the statement that traits that are as powerful as feats should cost double and traits that aren't should have a normal cost of 1. This has the effect of making weaker options better and stronger options worse in an effort to make them all approximately the same. Some tweaking is expected.
Heritage Feats can stay as heritage traits.
Some traits come about purely from biology and it makes sense to identify these traits to make sure that they are not acquired after level one. It's how you were born and even immersing yourself in the culture via the Paragon feat will not cause you to spontaneously grow an appendage or cause other biological changes to occur.
Normalize the base abilities of all of the ancestries.
Ignoring other systems and comparing the various ancestries against one another some grant more benefits then any other (such as dwarf) and others get noticeably fewer benefits then any other (such as halfling). Add or remove traits, I don't care what you do but this should not happen. All ancestries should be relatively balanced at a basic level.
and will help the Half-races feel more useful.
A large number of characters I make do not ever see level 10 or higher. PFS even has a limit on what level characters can reach before they are forced to retire. I do have the occasional character that makes it to the 15-20 range. Because the primary benefits provided by being a half-elf are delayed until level 9 or higher this means that even if every character I make is a half-elf, a large majority of them will never see the real benefits of it. This means that picking half-elf will "feel" pointless. Implementing these changes means that this option will never "feel" pointless. Even if the character never gets past level 1. I was never making a statement about them being stronger or weaker than other options, just that with the current implementation you won't really reap the benefits of this choice until halfway through your adventuring career which feels "wrong" and "dumb" to me for something labeled "ancestry".
I think a 'point buy system' for ancestry feats is a bit crunchy.
Some ancestry feats feel too powerful for level 1 though...
My proposed solution is
2 ancestry feats at level one
1 ancestry feat at level two
Then the current playtest progression.
Some of the 'too powerful' level 1 ancestry feats get a level 2 pre-requisite.
Basically I like the playtest idea of progressing in ancestry, but I do feel like it should be somewhat more frontloaded.
I concur with this proposal.
The proposal done by Azih would be a nice fix.
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I do think more ancestry feats at the start would be useful, two does make sense, especially with the half-elf/half orc being able to get a race feat off the bat, but limit some choices such as, General Training, only taken once per level, cannot be selected if you have the heritage feat.
I would open the half orc darkvision feat to 1st level.
I don't think you need another at level 2, I think 2 at first, balanced with the power of some, and then 5th/9th and so forth.
Ancestry represents a combination of genetics and how you were raised, Nature & Nurture if you will. I am assuming that my character is considered an adult. That may represent a different number of years depending on the ancestry in question but an adult none the less. This means that what ever effects nature and nurture have had on my character have happened. It therefore does not make sense to me that my character would suddenly develop an ability based on biology or how they were raised after they've become an adult as a result of adventuring.
This not only does not happen in the real world but it doesn't even happen in other gaming systems I've played. The only way it might make sense is if my character was some kind of mutant who's genetic makeup does not follow the "norm". The problem is even in game systems were you do literally play as a mutant (say paladium's heroes unlimited or tmnt), you get a number of points to spend on traits at character creation and you never get more as you level.
I was never really that into cooking as I grew up. I learned the basics, how to make pasta, hamburgers, bake a cake mix according to box directions, stuff like that. In my third decade of life, well after officially becoming an adult, I did get into cooking. Started learning new recipes, and experimenting with making my own. As part of this, I went to my mother and grandmother to ask about traditional family recipes. I learned how to make the foods that were culturally significant to my people. In other words, I gained new knowledge of a part of my ancestry; how to do something that those of my ancestry were known for. I assure you, I'm not a mutant.
My problem is how to you justify the Half-Orc obtaining Dark Vision at 5th level? He just wakes up with it after leveling. Its not like you can train it an learn it over time, I mean that could be implied but you level up and just get it.
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My problem is how to you justify the Half-Orc obtaining Dark Vision at 5th level? He just wakes up with it after leveling. Its not like you can train it an learn it over time, I mean that could be implied but you level up and just get it.
PF1e Half Orcs could get things like Ironhide (and Improved Natural Armor), Keen Scent, Iron Guts and Extra Traits(Tusked) at later levels. It isn't that much more far-fetched to suddenly gain Darkvision.
Of course, this could all be solved if we got an extra ancestry feat or two at first, so innate biological abilities don't have to be shoehorned into higher level ancestry feats for lack of feat slots at level 1.
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My problem is how to you justify the Half-Orc obtaining Dark Vision at 5th level? He just wakes up with it after leveling. Its not like you can train it an learn it over time, I mean that could be implied but you level up and just get it.PF1e Half Orcs could get things like Ironhide (and Improved Natural Armor), Keen Scent, Iron Guts and Extra Traits(Tusked) at later levels. It isn't that much more far-fetched to suddenly gain Darkvision.
Of course, this could all be solved if we got an extra ancestry feat or two at first, so innate biological abilities don't have to be shoehorned into higher level ancestry feats for lack of feat slots at level 1.
To be honest with you, I never looked much into the Half-Orc as it never interested me. Again yes it is if you just wake up an level then get it. I think ancestry feats should be all gained at 1st level. I liked the idea of a point based system. You get so many to spend and each cost so many point.
I commented on this in another thread, but cross posting here because it is also highly relevant.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v9p9&page=4?HalfOrcHalfElf#159
tl;dr - The half breed ancestry include 2 of 4 race typical features, and by investing twice you can get all four, so lets just do that for everyone automatically so you pick two parents (same race or mixed) and e.g. get the dwarfy or orcish features based on your blood.
That would be a good solution if every race would be able to interbreed with every other race which isn't the case in the world of Golarion. I'm sure you can come up with houserules for your homebrew setting but the pathfinder 2 rules are supposed to represent the world of Golarion and not every possible setting people come up with.
Are 2.0 races now like mutants in the Marvel universe that get their abilities when they grow up?