Clarity regarding veil of fleeting glances vs. Gaze attacks

[mCo]

This my seem like a pretty silly question but the group I'm a part of, including the GM, we're spilt as to the application of a veil of glances versus a gaze attack. There was a short debate and then we agreed to the GM's ruling so as not to disrupt the game nor combat. The GM said to me that he was open to my interpretation if I found an official thread on it, which I haven't and am now asking for clarity here.

The GM ruled that the veil of fleeting glances a 50% chance to avoid making a saving throw versus the gaze attack (in addition to the 50% for averting eyes). My character of course missed and was forced to make a save, I figured that my character would then gain a +4 to the save vs. G
gaze attack. The GM ruled that the veil only gave a 50% to avoidance to males the save. Subsequently my character went insane and lost the use of his arms which sucks if you're an Aldori Swordlord, yet rather comical.

I had a hard time understanding that an item that gives a +4 circumstance bonus on saving throws against patterns, visual pigments, and other vision-based effects and attacks but not gaze attacks?

Just curious to hear what people have to say.

We've been gaming for long enough that one might be surprised that we even had this debate but that's how it goes sometimes. My character did survive being saved by the party. He would've made the save if he was granted the +4, there was another member that also succumbed to the insanity.

Thanks for your time and input

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Veil of Fleeting Glances wrote:

In addition to hiding the face, this fine lace veil protects the wearer against gaze attacks. The wearer has a 50% chance to avoid making a saving throw against a gaze attack even when not averting her eyes. If the wearer averts her eyes, she rolls twice (once for the veil, once for averting her eyes) and uses the more favorable result.

Against patterns, visual figments, and other vision-based effects and attacks that cannot affect blind creatures, the veil grants the wearer a +4 circumstance bonus on saving throws. The veil does not otherwise impede the wearer’s vision in any way.

Heretofore I have just assumed that the second paragraph stands in deliberate contrast to the first and therefore doesn't include gaze attacks. Now that you make me examine that assumption I find it highly ambiguous... but if I have to vote, I still vote that way (GM's side), even though it feels iffy.

[dragonhunterq]

I would probably give the +4, on the basis a gaze seems to me a 'vision based effect', but it is not so clear cut that I would say anything to a GM who ruled otherwise.

[merpius]

So, if we're looking at pure RAW here (ignoring intent, etc) the requirement to get the +4 bonus is that it must be a "vision-based effects and attacks that cannot affect blind creatures."

So, let's look at Gaze attack and the blinded condition:

Gaze (Su) wrote:

A gaze special attack takes effect when foes look at the attacking creature’s eyes. The attack can have any sort of effect; petrification, death, and charm are common. The typical range is 30 feet, but check the creature’s entry for details. The type of saving throw for a gaze attack varies, but it is usually a Will or Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 gazing creature’s racial HD + gazing creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s text). A successful saving throw negates the effect. A monster’s gaze attack is described in abbreviated form in its description. Each opponent within range of a gaze attack must attempt a saving throw each round at the beginning of his or her turn in the initiative order. Only looking directly at a creature with a gaze attack leaves an opponent vulnerable. Opponents can avoid the need to make the saving throw by not looking at the creature, in one of two ways.

Averting Eyes: The opponent avoids looking at the creature’s face, instead looking at its body, watching its shadow, tracking it in a reflective surface, etc. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance to avoid having to make a saving throw against the gaze attack. The creature with the gaze attack, however, gains concealment against that opponent.

Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one’s back on the creature or shutting one’s eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent.

A creature with a gaze attack can actively gaze as an attack action by choosing a target within range. That opponent must attempt a saving throw but can try to avoid this as described above. Thus, it is possible for an opponent to save against a creature’s gaze twice during the same round, once before the opponent’s action and once during the creature’s turn.

Gaze attacks can affect ethereal opponents. A creature is immune to gaze attacks of others of its kind unless otherwise noted. Allies of a creature with a gaze attack might be affected. All the creature’s allies are considered to be averting their eyes from the creature with the gaze attack, and have a 50% chance to not need to make a saving throw against the gaze attack each round. The creature can also veil its eyes, thus negating its gaze ability.

Blinded wrote:

The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength– and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

Here's why I plastered those both in there; blindness does not give you immunity to gaze attacks (either formt he condition or from the description of gaze attacks), thus they would not qualify for the +4 at all, anyway.

Gaze attacks do make special provision for being blindfolded, closed eyes, or turned back. But, those all have 1 thing in common that doesn't apply to all forms of blindness; the attacker cannot see the eyeballs of the target.

Of course specific creatures' gaze attacks may vary, but you did not specify the creature.

[merpius]

Er dang; this was double posted, I guess. I gave a pure RAW based answer on the other thread; summary; no you don't get the +4 vs gaze, because blindness does not give you immunity from gaze attacks (which is a requirement to get the +4).