| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
According to the Core Rulebook, Tiny creatures typically have a space of 2-1/2 ft., and creatures with a space less than 1 square (5 ft.) typically have a reach of 0 ft.
Size and Space - Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny
These creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Up to 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square.
Reach and Threatened Squares
Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares unless using weapons with the reach special property. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This movement may provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can thus move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity, and they also can’t flank enemies.
According to the Core Rulebook and Alien Archive (the two have nearly-identical text), a creature's space and reach will be listed in its stat block if they are not both 5 ft.
How to Read Stat Blocks - Space and Reach
The creature’s space and reach are noted here; if the creature’s space and reach are a 5-foot square and a reach of 5 feet, respectively, this entry is omitted. Any special reach (from weapons or the like) is listed in parentheses.
How to Read a Stat Block
Space and Reach: The creature’s space and reach are noted here if they are other than a 5-foot square and 5 feet (those values are the default). Any special reach (from weapons or the like) is listed in parentheses.
I could only find three examples of Tiny creatures: Apari Constituent (Alien Archive pg. 14), Tiny Elemental (Alien Archive pg. 46), and Quig (hover drone for the iconic mechanic). None of these creatures' stat blocks have listed space or reach entries.
But creatures smaller than Tiny do have space and reach entries. I found two examples: Skittermander Whelp (Diminutive, Alien Archive pg. 106) and Symbiend (Diminutive, Alien Archive pg. 112). Both have a space of 1 ft. and a reach of 0 ft., though the Skittermander Whelp has a 5 ft. reach for its bite attack specifically.
I'm trying to reconcile these rules and stat blocks, and I'm not sure which conclusion to come to.
1. The Core Rulebook is correct about the space and reach of Tiny creatures; they have a space of 2-1/2 ft. and a reach of 0 ft. Every Tiny creature created by Paizo thus far erroneously excludes the Space and Reach entries.
2. The Core Rulebook is incorrect about the space and reach of Tiny creatures; they should have a space of 5 ft. and a reach of 5 ft. Every Tiny creature created by Paizo thus far correctly excludes the Space and Reach entries.
3. The Core Rulebook is correct about the space and reach of Tiny creatures, but it says "typically", not "always". Every Tiny creature created by Paizo thus far is an exception to the rule (the specific creatures override the general rule), and those creatures' stat blocks correctly exclude the Space and Reach entries.
4. Something else?
In the absence of a FAQ/errata clarifying this, I'm inclined to assume the rules and stat blocks are all correct, and go with #3.
Thoughts?
Tiny and smaller creatures with a reach of 0ft. can only attack things within the square they occupy. That is, to attack a human, a Tiny Elemental must enter the square that human occupies first.
Tiny and smaller creatures with a reach of 0ft. can only attack things within the square they occupy.
I totally agree.
That is, to attack a human, a Tiny Elemental must enter the square that human occupies first.
This I'm less sure about.
The rules for reading stat blocks say that a creature with no space or reach entry occupies a 5 ft. space and has a reach of 5 ft.
The rules for Tiny creatures say they typically have a space of 2-1/2 ft. and a reach of 0 ft.
The question I'm trying to ask is: when a Tiny creature does not have a space or reach entry in its stat block, what does that mean? Does that mean it is an atypical Tiny creature, occupying a 5 ft. space and having a 5 ft. reach? Or does it mean the stat block is incorrect and we're supposed to assume it occupies a 2-1/2 ft. space and has a 0 ft. reach?
If there's a stat missing from the specific stat block of a creature based on size or type, and there's a ruling for what is "base" or "typical" for something of that creature's type or size, then you go with that ruling.
If there's a stat missing from the specific stat block of a creature based on size or type, and there's a ruling for what is "base" or "typical" for something of that creature's type or size, then you go with that ruling.
But... why?
The rule for reading stat blocks say "if the creature’s space and reach are a 5-foot square and a reach of 5 feet, respectively, this entry is omitted". You seem to be reading that as "if the creature’s space and reach are typical for the creature's size category, this entry is omitted". But the rule doesn't say that.
We have two rules in direct conflict:
- If creature is Tiny, typically space is 2-1/2 ft. and reach is 0 ft.
- If stat block has no space or reach entry, space is 5 ft. and reach is 5 ft.
I'm inclined to think that when two rules directly conflict, "if A, then B" is stronger than the one that says "if C, then typically D".
We have two rules in direct conflict:
- If creature is Tiny, typically space is 2-1/2 ft. and reach is 0 ft.
- If stat block has no space or reach entry, space is 5 ft. and reach is 5 ft.
I'm inclined to think that when two rules directly conflict, "if A, then B" is stronger than the one that says "if C, then typically D".
This conflict does not exist in the RAW, and I don't know where you're getting the idea that "If stat block has no space or reach entry, space is 5 ft. and reach is 5 ft." because it's not in the How To Read A Stat Block entry in the source material.
A creature's size determines its space and reach.
So:
If the stat block is empty of explicit Reach, then use Size rules to determine the reach.
This is where I'm getting the idea that a creature with no space or reach entry has a 5 ft. space and reach:
How to Read Stat Blocks - Space and Reach
The creature’s space and reach are noted here; if the creature’s space and reach are a 5-foot square and a reach of 5 feet, respectively, this entry is omitted. Any special reach (from weapons or the like) is listed in parentheses.
How to Read a Stat Block
Space and Reach: The creature’s space and reach are noted here if they are other than a 5-foot square and 5 feet (those values are the default). Any special reach (from weapons or the like) is listed in parentheses.
The rules explicitly state that the space and reach entries in a stat block only appear if the creature does not have a 5 ft. space and a 5 ft. reach.
Any Tiny or smaller creatures (as well as Large or larger creatures) explicitly can't have a 5 ft space so that sentence is really only useful for Small or Medium creatures. Since "Size determines space and reach," and since giving a Tiny creature average space and reach literally defeats the remaining mechanical purpose of having creatures smaller than Small, you should treat Size as the "non-omission" of Space and Reach.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
"if the creature’s space and reach are a 5-foot square and a reach of 5 feet, respectively, this entry is omitted"
There is nothing there that says "but only if it's Small or Medium".
This would be much simpler if the rules for reading stat blocks said the space and reach entries are omitted if the creature has the default space and reach for its size category. But it doesn't say that. It says the entries are omitted if the creature has a 5 ft. space and a 5 ft. reach.
That's why I'm saying there are two rules in direct conflict. The rule that you're citing says the Apari Constituent and Tiny Elemental each have a space of 2-1/2 ft. and a reach of 0 ft. The other rule says they have a space of 5 ft. and reach of 5 ft.
I totally think these two creatures need errata that adds "Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft." to their stat blocks. That's most likely the intent. But until that errata happens, their space and reach are quite ambiguous by RAW.
My goal is not to deify RAW. My goal is to get an official clarification to avoid table variation in Society play.
Would I be better off posting in the Starfinder Society forum to try to get a clarification there?
It doesn't need to say "but only if its Small or Medium."
RAW/I for Tiny creatures is to take up 2.5 feet and have a Reach of 0 feet. RAW in this instance of stat blocks is awkward and ambiguous but it is not directly in conflict with that idea. It says that the entry will be omitted if the space and reach are 5 and 5; it does not say that a creature's space and reach are 5 by 5 if they are omitted.
I flagged the thread for you to get it moved to the Society forum, but I'll be incredibly surprised if you get a different ruling there
I agree that the intent is for these creatures to have a space of 2-1/2 ft. and a reach of 0 ft.
Sorry for phrasing my initial posts so argumentatively. I was hoping to get a discussion that generated a FAQ, but that was clearly not the right way to do this. I'll make a new post on the Starfinder Society forum, worded differently and including your citations.
Thanks!