Spin off of current thread - does an unconscious or sleeping target know if a spell has been cast on them?

[2bz2p]

There's been a lot of talk about when you are aware of a spell being cast on you in a very recent thread. Most site a FAQ to support the idea you generally know when you are having a spell cast on you, even if you don't know the source, but that led me to more specific thoughts: Casting a spell on a sleeping person, a drunk person, an unconscious person -- some target that has its normal senses impaired. Do you know a spell was cast on you when you are totally out?

If a Mark of Justice or a Charm Person was cast on a target that was completely unable to detect anything (say knocked out cold or blackout drunk) do they retroactively get to know a spell was cast on them when they come to? Are we always aware a spell has been cast on us even when we are unaware of anything else? If you suffer memory loss (as in the conscious but blackout drunk scenario anyone who has lived at a big college has seen up close) do you still get to recall a spell was cast on you later on, when you would normally not recall anything at all?

[bhampton]

I'd say no, given that the Spellcraft skill specifically calls out being able to see the spell as it is being cast and has the same modifiers as a Perception check with regard to distance, conditions, etc.. Asleep is a +10 to the DC. Drunk, maybe give them distracted as well, +5. If the spellcaster was right next to them casting in a normal voice, it'd be a DC 15. Move the caster and it increases +1/10ft. So if the caster was 30ft and cast Charm Person it's be a DC 18, not too hard for most adventurers.
Unconscious, I'd say you're not able to perform a perception check, as unconscious are unable to perform any actions.

[maouse33]

Well, if someone touches you when you are asleep, you are allowed a perception role at -10 Charm Person also has a Verbal component, so you'd be allowed a roll to hear the casting (-10 also). Unless they did silent spell, then you'd be SOL. Retroactive spellcrafting checks are not a thing. They'd need a very nice GM to get to make that roll. IMHO If you are knocked unconscious, you are completely at the person's mercy and don't get perception rolls to wake up. The duration is based on what put you in that condition.

Spoiler:

While asleep, a character takes a –10 penalty on Perception checks and cannot attempt Perception checks that rely on vision, but she can otherwise attempt reactive Perception checks to notice changes in her environment that do not rely on sight.

[2bz2p]

So nothing would stop a casting of a Mark Of Justice on a tied up unconscious target, with the mark placed in a hidden area (maybe back of the head under the hair). Then when the target comes to, should they perform the action designed to trigger the mark the curse triggers, no save. There's no "realization" or "feeling" that someone cast a spell on you while you were out. Agreed?

[maouse33]

2bz2p wrote:

So nothing would stop a casting of a Mark Of Justice on a tied up unconscious target, with the mark placed in a hidden area (maybe back of the head under the hair). Then when the target comes to, should they perform the action designed to trigger the mark the curse triggers, no save. There's no "realization" or "feeling" that someone cast a spell on you while you were out. Agreed?

If they were knocked out (below zero hit points through damage) then no, they don't get to perceive the world. They get to stabilize from bleeding out. I believe that is the only action allowed to a character/ npc forced into unconsciousness via damage. The back of their head might itch, and if they own a mirror they might be able to see it with a second mirror (say pool of water). Old movies did this a lot.

If you've ever knocked someone out IRL, or seen them pass out from drinking (nonlethal damage), or otherwise seen someone go unconscious from something other than sleeping, you know you can pretty well do whatever you want to them. I believe Bill Cosby used this strategy to avoid jail time while doing CE heinous acts upon women. I don't suggest you use this for evil, but yeh, some people do.

[Diego Rossi]

If they are unconscious from damage, drugs or other things they have no way to notice when the magic is applied. Sleeping persons have a small chance to make a perception check and wake, but they would wake in reaction of the spell casting, so probably they wouldn't realize what wake them unless the casting time was longer than 1 standard action and is still under way.

Afterward, depending on the effect of the magic, there is a small chance of noticing and identifying its effect with Knowledge (arcane). It all depend on the effect of the magic.
Some kind of visible/perceptible mark will have a chance to be detected with perception (as an example a scar in the back of your neck can be felt but not seen unless regularly examining oneself with a mirror). DC would be decided by the GM and rolled secretly.
Behavior changing magic can be detected by other people, the target will not normally notice it.
Curses are easier to notice as the effects are generally evident.
Spells that cause nightmares and lack of sleep are hard to discern from normal nightmares.
It is all in the hands of the GM.