I have a player who has mentioned looking at wanting to play a Cardinal cleric as they would like more skills, notably the social ones
I read the archetype and balked. It seems staggeringly under-powered even by usual cleric archetype standards. And especially when compared to Herald Caller.
The Herald Caller gets:
- 2 less skill points
- 4 less class skills
- Higher BAB
- Effectively 3 bonus feats
- The ability to heal summons with channel regardless of range/area
- Can still spontaneously heal
- Gains spontaneous summoning
Not an even comparison at all. Even in a more skills based campaign it doesn't seem fair
This seems like a mismatch
I can't fathom why the Cardinal needs to lose so much just to gain 4 extra skill ranks and 4 extra class skills (one of which is functionally useless in most games)
I would like to try and power the archetype up whilst still sticking to the theme. Does anyone have any advice?
Clearly the theme is based on Cardinal Wolsey of Tudor/Henry VIII fame who famously worked his way up through political intrigue and ended up Chancellor with a massive palace and a family on the side. Hardly in line with the tenants of his religion.
This is where we get the extra skill ranks, the reason for the selection of extra class skills and the justification for the reduced divine power. The reduced BAB seems based on the fact that this man was not a trained warrior. But hardly any real world "cleric" analogies were.
No part of the archetype seems to justify 1/2 BAB. The only classes who have this are 9 level arcane casters. A cardinal's power level does not seem to equal that.
Potential steps:
- Return spontaneous casting (I think this one is probably a given)
- Increase BAB back up to 3/4
- Give domain back (potentially at delayed power) but keep reduced proficiency and BAB
- Give bonus feats : but lean into the skill idea and restrict them
- As above but with Skill unlocks instead
- Give the Phantom Thief ability to add half level to some selective skills (but at a much slower rate)
- Some kind of combination of the above
Point 6 is probably too powerful as the Phantom Thief gives up sneak attack for this
I like the idea of Bonus "skill" feats from a specific list.
Would this be too powerful? And how many would be reasonable?
- 1st level, 5th level and every 5 (1,5,10,15,20) ? - 5 extra
- 1st, 4th level and every 4 (1,4,8,12,16,20) - 6 extra
Or is this too much? It comes down to how I should value a domain, spontaneous casting and reduced BAB in terms of trade off?
Apparently 1 skill rank a level is worth a feat (Cunning / Fast learner). This suggests the Cardinal gains 4 "feats" plus some extra class skills (1 or 2 feats?)
- But they lose two proficiency feats (2 feats).
- Reduced BAB over the live of a character is worth 5 points of BAB. This is huge and no feat offers this. Even if you could take it 5 rounds of weapon focus doesn't equate because it is only one weapon.
- Spontaneous casting is probably worth a feat
- A domain is worth at least 2 feat in my opinion. You gain two abilities from it and some flexibility to a spell list. Certain domains offer a feat (or more) on top (e.g. Darkness, Travel)
This is rambling now but if I was being as harsh as possible on the Cardinal (in terms of over-valuing what it gains and under-valuing what it loses) I have it shaking down at:
- 6 "feats" gained
- Minimum 10 feats lost
So going through this thought exercise suggests to me that my idea for 5 or 6 bonus feats might not be overly generous.
What do other people think?
(Is this even the right board for this? I wasn't sure if it was here or Homebrew?)
TL/DR: I would like to power up the cardinal so that a player doesn't feel under-powered (I am leaving aside the chance of talking them out of playing the class).
I think bonus feats (in skill related areas) is the best an most thematic way. What do others think?
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The Cardinal is cool, even if it's lousy.
Off the top of my head. I'd consider some of the following:
- Reduce one domain to just an inquisition, instead of lose a domain.
-Conceal Spell as a bonus feat.
- Deific Obedience (Possibly with the accelerated track)
I was gonna suggest Symbolic Mastery as a filler but sheesh it's still too lousy even as a freebie. I need to get round to writing the homebrew cleric archetype based on it that I want to.
An important thing to consider, both as GM and player, is that not all archetypes are ideal for PC's. Many archetypes are clearly intended for NPC's, and are just a mechanical way for GM's to justify more skill points, or that one cool power that the players don't expect. Ultimately, they will not stand up against the archetypes that are geared for the questing adventurer.
That being said, you may want to consider that as the Cardinal gains ranks in the church hierarchy, he does indeed become closer to his God, as this is a world with clearly present deities and divine power. Give him expanded access to the other domains in his patron's portfolio, like an oracle's curse gradually becomes more of a blessing. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, he gains a new domain, but the domain powers are delayed accordingly (second domain is treated as level-4, third domain as level-9, and so on).
That sounds to me like a priest that the other members of his order would greatly respect, but who is still unskilled in battlefield tactics and survival, which is what the archetype ultimately is meant to convey.
Honestly, in my opinion more class skills is a fairly worthless bonus. One or two skills specific skills you want is nice, but even without the bonus class skills and with 4 more skill ranks per level there are still more class skills than skill ranks for the cleric. This is especially true if you are using traits, letting anyone pick up a class skill or two.
So really, they are just getting 4 skill ranks a level.
That might be worth going to 1/2 bab from 3/4 bab or losing a domain, but that is really it in my opinion. Having it only remove one of those two (I'd let the player choose) still wouldn't make it an overpowered archetype in my opinion. That would also make it easier to stack with other archetypes if they wanted further customization.
An important thing to consider, both as GM and player, is that not all archetypes are ideal for PC's. Many archetypes are clearly intended for NPC's, and are just a mechanical way for GM's to justify more skill points, or that one cool power that the players don't expect. Ultimately, they will not stand up against the archetypes that are geared for the questing adventurer.
That being said, you may want to consider that as the Cardinal gains ranks in the church hierarchy, he does indeed become closer to his God, as this is a world with clearly present deities and divine power. Give him expanded access to the other domains in his patron's portfolio, like an oracle's curse gradually becomes more of a blessing. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, he gains a new domain, but the domain powers are delayed accordingly (second domain is treated as level-4, third domain as level-9, and so on).
That sounds to me like a priest that the other members of his order would greatly respect, but who is still unskilled in battlefield tactics and survival, which is what the archetype ultimately is meant to convey.
Regarding your first point on NPCs - I agree and even more so for prestige classes. However this is not made clear to players
I have a player who wants to play a skillful cleric both due to the nature of the campaign (Hell's Rebels) and to try and fill gaps in the party composition
The Cardinal is cool, even if it's lousy.
Off the top of my head. I'd consider some of the following:
- Reduce one domain to just an inquisition, instead of lose a domain.
-Conceal Spell as a bonus feat.
- Deific Obedience (Possibly with the accelerated track)I was gonna suggest Symbolic Mastery as a filler but sheesh it's still too lousy even as a freebie. I need to get round to writing the homebrew cleric archetype based on it that I want to.
Ooh I was actually considering Deific Obedience as well
I like the idea that all the Machiavellian skills based maneuverings are then counteracted by the forced display of piety. It reminds me of Ian McShane in Pillars of the Earth. A corrupt Bishop who would do horrible things and then self flagellate (Zon Kuthon obedience anyone?)
Does anyone else have any further thoughts on this?
I agree that the archetype is underpowered, in my opinion losing medium armor, shields, and going to 1/2 BAB is more than enough for what you get. I would suggest letting him keep the second domain and spontaneous casting. Also keep in mind that you compared this to what is arguably the most overloaded cleric archetype in terms of how much it gets for how little it gives away.
I agree that the archetype is underpowered, in my opinion losing medium armor, shields, and going to 1/2 BAB is more than enough for what you get. I would suggest letting him keep the second domain and spontaneous casting. Also keep in mind that you compared this to what is arguably the most overloaded cleric archetype in terms of how much it gets for how little it gives away.
Ah it is useful to know that it is not a reasonable comparison to make
The Evangelist Prestige Class is an excellent option, especially for Clerics, to boost skills AND combat ability. It won't happen for quite a while if you're staring at 1st level, though.
Also remember that +1 Skill Rank is an option for Favoured Class Bonus at each Cleric level.
A few ideas:
- Add CHA to his AC.
- Add a few spells from Enchantment like Charm Personn on his list.
- Give him a Talent feat each four levels.
- Just don’t do his spellcasting/domain réduction.
- Give him Conceal Spell, and other stealthy feats with magic.
- Give him a « contact » mechanic where he knows the good people for the right job.
A few ideas:
- Add CHA to his AC.
- Add a few spells from Enchantment like Charm Personn on his list.
- Give him a Talent feat each four levels.
- Just don’t do his spellcasting/domain réduction.
- Give him Conceal Spell, and other stealthy feats with magic.
- Give him a « contact » mechanic where he knows the good people for the right job.
What do you mean by Talent feat ? Just a rogue talent ?
I am making a list of skill based feats but my slight concern is that even rogues don’t get things like that (closest being when phantom theif trades sneak attack away to get more skill unlocks and large bonusss. But giving this and 9 levels of spells is a bit much)
My bad I always forget the English name. I was speaking of the feat Skill Focus (which is called Talent in French)
I personally would stick to reducing what the archetype takes away rather than adding new unrelated stuff to it. My suggestion is still to keep the 1/2 BAB and Light Armor only, but let him have his 2nd domain and spontaneous casting. That gives the class a more caster/utility feel (by taking away martial power while keeping his casting utility).