So how have people managed non standard races in the AP? Are people allowing them or insisting on those recommended by the players guide
I (unfortunately) have some players who seem to find the core races "boring".
Wouldn't it be challenging to a revolution to have say, the only Ifrit in town be a prominent member. Or the striking heterochromatic eyed changeling?
I have seen some people alter the notoriety rules to reflect this. I guess the question will come down to whether the race decision is an attempted power game move or has a strong story motivation. Call me a cynic but I expect more of the former from my players.
On a related note, two of the races mentioned in the guide:
- Strix: Can these work as a PC? Surely the hatred of humans is a bit of a problem in a majority human settlement. Has anyone had a Strix PC?
- Aquatic Elves: These don't seem balanced. As written they are strictly better than standard elves. Am I missing something or are any downsides purely going to be a role playing thing?
Basically, they're going to have to explain how they plan to avoid the dottari after their first action. How will their disguises work? How will they survive to a level where they can at least get a hat of disguise? How will they recruit people to their cause when they are so readily identifiable and discontented loyalists or spies can easily mark them for the dottari? If they have a plan, great, play what you want.
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Wouldn't it be challenging to a revolution to have say, the only Ifrit in town be a prominent member. Or the striking heterochromatic eyed changeling?
Ordinary folk, including the dottari, might mistake an ifrit for a tiefling - of whom there are hundreds in this city - easily enough, and strikingly heterochromatic changelings are less uncommon in Kintargo than you might think.
Basically, though, roguerouge has the right of it (this is something I can't say often enough). Anyone that isn't a human is going to get hassled by Chelaxian authorities given the country's ruling ideology. While this gives non-human PCs a built-in motivation to want to tear the rulers down, it also presents them with challenges being part of a clandestine subversive group.
Wouldn't it be challenging to a revolution to have say, the only Ifrit in town be a prominent member. Or the striking heterochromatic eyed changeling?Ordinary folk, including the dottari, might mistake an ifrit for a tiefling - of whom there are hundreds in this city - easily enough, and strikingly heterochromatic changelings are less uncommon in Kintargo than you might think.
Basically, though, roguerouge has the right of it (this is something I can't say often enough). Anyone that isn't a human is going to get hassled by Chelaxian authorities given the country's ruling ideology. While this gives non-human PCs a built-in motivation to want to tear the rulers down, it also presents them with challenges being part of a clandestine subversive group.
Thanks for this it is good to know.
And the more i think about it there is a chance that halflings might have more trouble than most given their status in the country
It comes back to what roguerogue said and what I mentioned to one of my players recently - they are going to need a good story both for being there and how they plan to deal with their status as a revolutionary
Halflings actually would have an easy "in" from the very get go with Laria. It actually would explain her leap of faith in the Silver Ravens.
Ok so I am reviving this thread because one of my players approached me about creating and Android as a backup character
He has freely admitted in the past to wanting to subvert traditional high fantasy stereotypes - despite it being the foundations of pathfinder
Now i as a general rule hate the idea . But I am willing to work with him as he puts a lot of effort into characters and would put a lot of effort in tying them to the background of the setting
I am struggling
He wanted to make one be a servant / collectors item. But this is a nation where people have halfling slaves and can summon devils.
One thought was the android being “purchased” pre-Thrune...
He wants to be an Android Exemplar Brawler and I honestly cannot think how that character makes any sense at all
Another problem is the draft story was written as basically treating an Android as a robot rather than something with a soul and emotions . He even had it apparently standing in a room just gathering dust - which i am pretty sure an android would never do...
Since this is not a power gaming attempt i do not want to just forbid it. But I get the feeling it could be someone with more interest in other genres just being a bit subversive as mentioned...
Cut a deal: the Android must be a worshipper of Irori. Then you get a good hook for the Fantasmagorium and Rexus, plus the conversation with the trapped book planar outsider should be oodles of fun.
As the only !@#$!% android in town, he better have a GREAT disguise skill or he'll be disappeared by House Thrune. Ask him how he's going to solve the problem of being easily identified as a revolutionary. Put the onus on him to create a solution.
And, if his character does survive and thrive, I'd strongly recommend having a shipment of guns from Alkenstar be arranged by the CCG or the dottari. Touch attack damage will help those groups be more viable threats for a bit longer.
So I should have clarified that this is a theoretical back up character and one that might not be needed in book 1
So the Irori thing is interesting but may not come up
His current plan had the android purchased by the victacora’s and forgotten about and getting out in the fire
I pointed out several reasons why this didn’t make sense in my opinion - chiefly that you wouldn’t and couldn’t forget about a sentient being in your home
On the guns why would these be brought in? As part of research into where androids might have come from? I would rather not start giving my PCs potential access to guns if for no other reason than it being seeing as tacit convent for the gunslinger class (which I really don’t see fitting in cheliax)
...for the gunslinger class (which I really don’t see fitting in cheliax)
What makes you think a gunslinger wouldn't fit in in Cheliax?
Elia Nones, lieutenant of a Cheliaxian naval ship, is a gunslinger that uses a pepperbox (sure, she's from Katapesh, but still).
Guns are terrible weapons unless you're a gunslinger, once you hit medium levels. I wouldn't worry about it, unless this is a genre preference of yours to keep guns out.
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Strix - they fly. bottom line. if i'm a DM, they aren't allowed.
Aquatic Elf - any player choosing this is doing it strictly for their mechanical advantages in certain parts of the AP. I think they are mentioned as possibilities in the player's guide, but if they aren't, i'd axe that idea as well.
Android - as a backup character (maybe it's discovered in the museum or in the basement of the opera house or the hideout in book 2?) it's fine, as long as you tell the player that they have to put points into disguise at every level until the end of book 4. it's a rebellion, after all. the android themes which were developed in Iron Gods of seeking to make their own decisions, actually kinda tie into the themes of Hell's Rebels, so I wouldn't have much of a problem with them at the table, so long as the player is buying into them as well.
This really is a campaign for "core" races to Cheliax. Humans, gnomes, halflings, etc. It's "the people of Kintargo" rising up to take control of their lives. The PCs should be tied to Kintargo, and if they are from some exotic stock, that connection is lessened.
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Guns are terrible weapons unless you're a gunslinger, once you hit medium levels. I wouldn't worry about it, unless this is a genre preference of yours to keep guns out.
She's also the only character that uses a firearm in the AP, and sticks out like a sore thumb in more ways than one...
Guns are rare in Golarion anyway so unless a PC is a gunslinger there's no reason to introduce them.
PS: I wouldn't ever call targeting touch AC terrible, though firearms do have a lot of drawbacks.
Guns are terrible weapons unless you're a gunslinger, once you hit medium levels. I wouldn't worry about it, unless this is a genre preference of yours to keep guns out.She's also the only character that uses a firearm in the AP, and sticks out like a sore thumb in more ways than one...
Guns are rare in Golarion anyway so unless a PC is a gunslinger there's no reason to introduce them.
PS: I wouldn't ever call targeting touch AC terrible, though firearms do have a lot of drawbacks.
What are the other ways she sticks out?
I was thinking of making her a swashbuckler anyway
I find guns jarring. I know they exist in golarion but still...
Also I can’t get my head around how she hasn’t beaten her captain if she can effectively use such an effective weapon. I know things aren’t always as simple as that...
Guns are terrible weapons unless you're a gunslinger, once you hit medium levels. I wouldn't worry about it, unless this is a genre preference of yours to keep guns out.She's also the only character that uses a firearm in the AP, and sticks out like a sore thumb in more ways than one...
Guns are rare in Golarion anyway so unless a PC is a gunslinger there's no reason to introduce them.
PS: I wouldn't ever call targeting touch AC terrible, though firearms do have a lot of drawbacks.
What are the other ways she sticks out?
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She's a LE half elf in service to a LN captain whose supposed to be a nationalist but assists a group of rebels.
Plus the way she auto-finds the PC's and everything about her encounter rubs me the wrong way.
Guns are terrible weapons unless you're a gunslinger, once you hit medium levels. I wouldn't worry about it, unless this is a genre preference of yours to keep guns out.She's also the only character that uses a firearm in the AP, and sticks out like a sore thumb in more ways than one...
Guns are rare in Golarion anyway so unless a PC is a gunslinger there's no reason to introduce them.
PS: I wouldn't ever call targeting touch AC terrible, though firearms do have a lot of drawbacks.
What are the other ways she sticks out?
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She's a LE half elf in service to a LN captain whose supposed to be a nationalist but assists a group of rebels.
Plus the way she auto-finds the PC's and everything about her encounter rubs me the wrong way.
I am going to try and introduce her early as someone who knows one or more of the PCs to try and smooth part of that out
She's a LE half elf in service to a LN captain whose supposed to be a nationalist but assists a group of rebels.
Plus the way she auto-finds the PC's and everything about her encounter rubs me the wrong way.
Thankfully all of that is SUPER easy to change.
No one knows her alignment so change it.Rather than her finding the PCs base (which I agree, that's terribly written and doesn't take PC actions/choices into account at all) have her looking for the PCs in neighbourhoods they frequent. Then an NPC associated with the rebellion can let the PCs know about this woman. That gives the PCs the power to choose if they want to meet with her and the captain or not. (Fair warning: Why would a group of rebels meet with a Chelish naval officer? They'll likely assume it's a trap and not go for it. Which is fine. The only two times cashing in the favours are mentioned are both to use the ship to get the PCs somewhere. These both happen the book after they find a folding boat in a treasure chest.)
I just skipped all of that. I had Marquel, the Poison Pen, have halfling "servants" contact Laria to ask for help with his house arrest. Laria, very annoyed with his presumption to use Bell Flower Network contacts for his privileged problem, passed along the request to the Silver Ravens. He had these servants being the ones distributing the poems throughout the city. He treated them well enough, while his father didn't.
I got this idea from the big report on the play through:
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These both happen the book after they find a folding boat in a treasure chest.
A folding boat, even fully unfolded to 24 feet, is terrible for long-distance travel. A four-PC party is going to be cramped, and that's saying nothing of storage for food and water. What's more, it's slow, especially if the PCs are untrained in profession (sailor), which they almost certainly will be. You could bring along another person to pilot the boat for you, but that just decreases your available space and increases your supply requirements. And there's only so much that person could do. With a 3:1 length to beam ratio, a folding boat is practically a tub.
Of course, what it's really for is keeping people's feet dry when they want to leave the Lucky Bones by the underwater exit.
These both happen the book after they find a folding boat in a treasure chest.A folding boat, even fully unfolded to 24 feet, is terrible for long-distance travel. A four-PC party is going to be cramped, and that's saying nothing of storage for food and water. What's more, it's slow, especially if the PCs are untrained in profession (sailor), which they almost certainly will be. You could bring along another person to pilot the boat for you, but that just decreases your available space and increases your supply requirements. And there's only so much that person could do. With a 3:1 length to beam ratio, a folding boat is practically a tub.
Of course, what it's really for is keeping people's feet dry when they want to leave the Lucky Bones by the underwater exit.
Well... The write-up for a folding boat states the larger form can hold 15 people with ease and has 5 pairs of oars and a deck cabin. So 5 people seems doable.
However, I completely agree that even the larger form will be a challenge for anything resembling a true ocean voyage (leaving sight of land) - which would be required for Vyre. And any approach to the Dismal Niche would be very perilous even if you stayed in sight of land. Doing either without notable ranks in profession (sailor) would seem... insane. (Do we assume profession (sailor) includes navigation skills? Because classically that was not the case - many able-bodied seamen could not navigate - that was typically the province of the ship's officers.)
The point on provisions and water are also well taken - the more people, the more space supplies take. And if not stowed correctly, impede the functioning of the vessel.
The folding boat, in it's small form, comfortably fits 4 people. They travel within sight of the shoreline, camp on land at night, and I guess my group is odd in that one or two have a decent amount of ranks in Profession Sailor.
Small lanteen boats (pictured here) appear to be used for fishing and racing. Going west along the coast from Kintargo before turning north towards the island of Vyre and then following the coast up to Vyre made sense to me. Especially with the spyglass they found helping the aquatic elves, the fact that one of the players was using the cloak of the mantra ray they found in the Lucky Bones to scout ahead and ensure the boat wouldn't hit any rocks/debris, and supplies are easy to store in handy haversacks.
Also, asking the aquatic elves that just came from Acisazi would make the travel easier too.
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Well... The write-up for a folding boat states the larger form can hold 15 people with ease and has 5 pairs of oars and a deck cabin. So 5 people seems doable.
The folding boat, in it's small form, comfortably fits 4 people.
That these statements appear in the item's writeup just go to show that neither Cook, Williams, and co., nor their successors did their research. Or had a strange sense of what "comfort" means. You can fit crews that large on boats that size, but they would have limited ability to stretch or move about, and would quickly begin to chafe against each other socially. And as stated, would not have room for anything else, including supplies (best hope you like the glop that comes out of create food and water!).
*shrugs*
I'm okay with people that literally trust each other with their lives being able to spend 8 hours at a time for a bunch of days in a confined space with each other and not coming to blows.
Also, it's a means to get to the next event in the AP... making the means of travel difficult seems weird to me.
The journey, however, had a few different encounters along the way. Some confrontational, some with creatures that were trying to understand the PCs.
My players had fun with it so I was happy with the result.
Are you? In such situations, people tend to eat each other.
Then they don't have to worry about the food problem!
But seriously, yes, I honestly believe that a close group of adventures would be able to survive a week long trip in a small boat.
And, at the very least, I don't think a group of players sitting around discussing the best way to get somewhere, looking through books, debating if using a limited resource (favours) are worth it, etc etc etc is a constructive use of time. Especially when they have the appropriate skills and some gear to help them do it on their own. I'd much rather they get to the actual adventure.
Are you? In such situations, people tend to eat each other.Then they don't have to worry about the food problem!
But seriously, yes, I honestly believe that a close group of adventures would be able to survive a week long trip in a small boat.
And, at the very least, I don't think a group of players sitting around discussing the best way to get somewhere, looking through books, debating if using a limited resource (favours) are worth it, etc etc etc is a constructive use of time. Especially when they have the appropriate skills and some gear to help them do it on their own. I'd much rather they get to the actual adventure.
This is a pretty good answer - do what advances the story for you. There's a space challenge, pending distance, duration and passenger list but not necessarily a critical one. My concern would be more on the skill side - none of my pc's (being self-absorbed for a moment) have any relevant skill. At least not yet. Perhaps finding the boat would motivate them to make the investment. Or I could remove the boat to make them more inclined to align with Captain Sargaeta. They'll likely have established a connection (for good or ill) with Sargaeta before finding the folding boat.
Perhaps finding the boat would motivate them to make the investment. Or I could remove the boat to make them more inclined to align with Captain Sargaeta. They'll likely have established a connection (for good or ill) with Sargaeta before finding the folding boat.
Personally, I'd suggest removing the boat as it would prevent any argument of "why can't we use it to get there?" as well as have them depend on the captain a little. (Or, if they don't like the captain they can always hire someone to bring them where they need to go.)