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Hi all! I am building a class based on taming creatures in your world. I have posted here about this idea before, but I have almost completely redone it, and have a rough "first draft" ready to share.
The class is mainly based around the Beast's Pact class feature which allows the beast heart to use diplomacy or intimidate to recruit creatures into companionship, and the Beast Heart Talent class feature which gives a big list of class features or feats that the beast heart can take every even level.
Here is the class: Beast Heart
And here is the (incomplete) talent list: Beast Heart Talent's
Please feel free to give suggestions for more talents too! It is a big piece of the class!
I want all the advice I can get! There is a lot in those two documents so I apologize, and thank those of you that take the time to read it.
I fear the class is overpowered, but I am not sure. One of my considerations is to give fewer talents, but again I am unsure.
I am also open to suggestions on "simplifying" (or more precisely, making more concise) the Beast's Pact companion recruiting system. I want it to be a series of checks, and I like that the first check considers many modifiers, but I realize it is currently convoluted.
Any and all advice, please giveth!
Hey so I did a massive write up of this and my computer just randomly died for no apparent reason before I could post it. So give me a bit and I'll have it back up. Big question before I write the whole thing up is this.
The general idea here is that the Beast Heart travels from location to location gathering animals companions through sheer force of will. Getting different ones in different ares as needed correct?
Also above all I want to say I love this class idea and can't wait to work on it. And pooossssibly use it in my own home games if you don't mind
Hey so I did a massive write up of this and my computer just randomly died for no apparent reason before I could post it. So give me a bit and I'll have it back up. Big question before I write the whole thing up is this.
The general idea here is that the Beast Heart travels from location to location gathering animals companions through sheer force of will. Getting different ones in different ares as needed correct?
Also above all I want to say I love this class idea and can't wait to work on it. And pooossssibly use it in my own home games if you don't mind
I hate when that happens! I am sorry to hear it.
Yes, you are correct. The idea is to travel around finding new creatures and recruiting them. I suppose you could just have one or two exotic companions, but that would be missing out on the core idea of the class.
I am glad to hear you enthusiasm :D I love the idea too and I very much want to make it into a working and balanced class. You are more than welcome to use it! I encourage it in fact, but I would love a report on how it goes if you do.
Also, I think their should be a way to get a lower CR creature and raise it up to your level, but I am not sure how to incorporate this. Should it just be a part of Beast's Pact, should it be its own class feature, or should it be a talent?
Beast Lore
This should be rewritten for clarity. You begin by listing what skills the bonus can be applied to, and then follow it up with some different skills it can be applied to. Further down, you say that Kn nature can be used to identify dragons, and then contradict yourself by saying that you must have the dragon pact to do so. You should require the dragon pact for this. This class feature already has enough heaped onto it.
Expert Handler
This should probably be rolled into Beast Lore, with a +1/2 level bonus instead of +level. Allowing the class to take 10 at 1st level is unneccessary. No one should an expert like that at 1st level. Taking 20 at 11th level is just ridiculous. Between taking 20, adding in your level, plus skill ranks, you’ve far exceeded any Handle Animal DC that you might face.
Monstrous Empathy
You’re trying to re-invent Wild Empathy. Sure I get that the result of a Wild Empathy check will always be lower than a Diplomacy check, but now you’re required that the beast heart must be good at talking to people in order to be good at talking to animals. You’ve also required the beast heart to spend skill points in order to use his central class feature. A better solution would be to use Wild Empathy and grant a bonus. You could use Wisdom instead of Charisma or you could just slap on a +4 to it.
Various Higher Level Class Features
You begin by setting the beast heart up as a skill-based character, and as early as 2nd level he starts getting class features that allow him to overcome challenges with magic instead of the skills he is supposed to be so good at. I think you should choose one of the two routes and go with that because it doesn’t take long before his magical ability render his skills obsolete
Beast hearts tend to be rugged, outdoorsy types and are often associated with or even mistaken for rangers, hunters and druids. However, not all beast hearts make a home of the wilderness. Some of the most famous beast hearts are scholars dedicated to understanding the beasts of the world, equipped with an innate connection to the subject of their studies.
[Emphasis mine]
Given this, I suggest you offer an alternative to Woodland Stride for the more urban and scholarly types - still empaths, still naturally gifted at bonding with beasts, just not so at home in the wilderness.
Sorry it took so long I just got off work 2 hours ago! Anyways!
So full write up time.
First off I agree with the above two comments. Especially with the fact that you should really choose between magic means of accomplishing tasks and skill means. Being a class that I believe should be charisma based I would recommend skill based.
So my general view of this class is that it is a great idea and I really want to make it work and test it out. The idea of traveling around picking up animal companions as you go is something I've been interested in ever since the various Pack Master achetypes. But I have a few things I think you might want to look at to both balance out its power and increase the fun a player would have with it in play.
Now you're saves on the other hand I would definitely change. Having good saves on both reflex and fortitude is rather powerful for a class that also is going to have a fair bit of health to work with. Almost all spells that deal direct damage and a large number of monster abilities and traps your GM would want to throw at you will require one of these two saves. By making these saves both good to start with and your health naturally pretty high. Seeing as you have no required ability investments on this write up of the class it would be easily for a player to invest in their CON and pick up toughness to become fairly tanky. Not to mention that you are going to have a number of animal companions that, while you and I would likely be quite sad to view our animal buddies this way, a less scrupulous player could view them as walking meat sacks of hit points. As you have added no penalty for loosing them. For these reasons I would suggest we have fortitude be the good save (Aligns more closely with the idea of being in the wild) and put reflex and will as normal saves.
With skills I suggest you reduce it to 4+int just for the sake of balance. As later in this I am going to suggest that Cha be the main stat of the class you will already have a fairly high score in the skills needed to use this class so you don't need such a high number of skills per level to balance it out.
with proficiencies I would suggest taking away martial weapons just to up the feeling of being of nature. Replace this with a Talent that gives you proficiency with martial weapons. Everything else can stay.
The beast heart can attempt to recruit an animal companion using a series of Diplomacy or Intimidate checks. Whether you choose Diplomacy or Intimidate, all subsequent checks must be using that choice. The first check must succeed a DC of 15 + Creature’s CR. The DC is affected by the creature’s attitude towards the beast heart (see Table 1). If using Diplomacy, the DC increases as the creatures health decreases; if using Intimidate, the opposite is true (see Table 2). Additionally, for each step of the creature’s alignment differing from the beast heart’s, the DC increases by 4. The first check takes an hour of uninterrupted time with the creature. If the beast heart fails this check, he can try again in 24 hours.
Succeeding the first check begins the pact process. This process requires 3 successful checks to complete, each with a DC of 12 + Creature’s CR (no other modifiers apply here). Each check takes 1 hour and all three must be made within the course of no more than 3 days. If 3 checks fail, the creature flees (but does not become hostile immediately) and cannot become a companion. During this process, the creature follows the beast heart, but will not obey or fight for him; it can move, think, and hunt for itself, but may also be provided for by the beast heart. Upon the 3rd successful check, the creature becomes an animal companion. It follows normal animal companion rules, except as follows:
The creature is initially treated as level 1 for reference to the Animal Companion Base Statistic Table. As you level, the pact creature advances as indicated by the table. If the creature has a higher CR version, you can use those stats upon reaching the appropriate level (i.e. if you have a wolf (CR 1) at level one, at level 3 you can advance it to a dire wolf (CR 3), but doing so resets the creature’s effective Animal Companion level back to 1).
This ability can only be used on creatures with CR less than or equal to levels in beast heart.
A Beast Heart can have a number of companions equal to their Cha bonus+CL. However a Beast Heart can only have one companion with them at a time. Each companion cannot leave the territory that it calls home. The GM has ultimate control over the size of this territory but it typically consist of any like area in connection to where the companion was originally gained. This could be an entire forest, a mountain range, as large as an entire island or island chain, or as small as a single city or the area surrounding a small town. A bonded creature will not willingly leave this area and will not follow a Beast Heart's commands outside of this area, but is still considered to have a helpful attitude towards them.
A Beast Heart can at anytime dismiss a companion gained through Beast's Pact in a small ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. Although animals and beasts dismissed in this way may change or retain their attitude towards the Beast Heart at GM discretion
Additionally, at 4th level, this ability can be used to recruit magical beasts. The initial DC becomes 20 + Creature’s CR, and subsequent DCs become 17 + Creature’s CR. For every 1 Intelligence score over 7, the DCs increase by another 1. All other modifiers apply as normal.
A beast heart may begin play with an animal of CR ½, or with no companion. If you are not first character level when you take your first level in beastmaster, you do not automatically gain a companion. **However, if you are in a low creature campaign, the GM might allow you to gain a companion up to your CR that could be found in the campaign. The GM may also allow the beast heart to gain another pact mate upon leveling up (at even levels) for the same reason.
So the idea behind my alterations to the Beast's Pact ability are to try and make it much more flexible to the idea of traveling from area to area and forming alliances with Beasts and Animals as you travel. The idea of a check taking 2 days does make sense from a making friends with them way but no party ever will want to wait around for them to do that everywhere they go. So I have reduced it to 2 hours. Still a long amount of time but the sort of thing that can be done on a down day or in preparation for something specific. This lets the GM come up with events that can involve the entire party in the acquisition of a new Beast's Pact companion.
Player "Well what has the snow leopard been up to?"
Gm "Well hes a snow leopard. Sooooo yeah. Hunting? Not much."
I also want to reiterate that I agree with the above sentiment that giving the ability to take a 10 at lvl one is crazy, and taking a 20 and lvl 11 is insane. Those definitely need drastically increased.
The level for casting dominate person but with animals also needs increased. To at least 10th level. And you should clarify that it uses their Cha bonus+their class lvl for the save.
However that's only if you keep it. Honestly I would remove the lesser Geas and the dominate animal parts and just give other bonuses to making friends with local animals. Perhaps having a bond with the a local animal or beast gives you a rangers favored terrain bonus at a low level equivalent when traveling with them.
My final question is why do they start at lvl 0 with the pact? Is this a method to allow them to be continually upgrading companions they get at low levels and yet be able to pick up higher CR creatures as they go along and keep them all relatively balanced? Just looking for clarification.
@Ciaran Barnes: Thank you for the responses!
Beast Lore: After rereading this, I realize I wrote it as a jumble. I fixed it, I think.
Expert Handler: Good suggestion, done.
Monstrous Empathy: I would like to be able to write this as Wild Empathy and be done with it, but I want the player to be able to boost it if they care too. I have been considering changing the Beast's Pact to Handle Animal instead of Diplomacy and Intimidate. I liked the idea of having an evil character using intimidate though. But if I do change it to Handle Animal, then I could rewrite this to be Handle Animal check to influence the creature's attitude. I guess that still has the same issues you have brought up though.
Various Higher Level Features: I definitely see what you mean, and have struggled with this a bit myself. The longer I play with the class the more I like it having access to some limited and specific magical abilities (like summoning creatures), but that does conflict with the skill focus. Do you think I should change the Beast's Pact feature to be more like a supernatural / spell-like ability instead and ditch the skill checks? Or should I make the Command and Dominate Animal abilities based off of skill checks? The latter option seems less conventional but.. really cool. Thoughts?
@Oceanshieldwolf: Thanks for the input. I have in fact been considering cutting that ability or adding it as a talent option instead. Another option might be to say: At third level the beast heart gains Woodland Stride or... Scribe Scroll (insert better idea here)? Something along those lines.
@all: I have been wanting to add the Summon Pactmate and maybe a few other talents back as actual class features but I am not sure. I am also struggling with the idea of recruiting a lower CR creature and somehow bringing it up to a more relevant level. Thoughts?
@Aeolus Wind King: Thank you for thorough response! I think you have some good suggestions and cool ideas, though our vision of the class might be differing a little. Part of my problem, I think, is that I have a few different visions in my head too. Part of what I see is a character that is just very in tune and fascinated by creatures. No magic, just a guy who understands animals. The other vision I have is closer to a summoner or warg. I don't know if you are familiar with MTG and Garruk Wildspeaker, or with the Shadow of War LotR game. This characters have access to beastial magics. They can tame, dominate, summon, and emulate creatures to varying extents. For example, Garruk hunts down creatures and slays them. Once he does, he can now summon their power and visage to fight beside himself. Talion, the character from Shadow of War, can dominate and ride any creatures he comes across. Of course, there is Pokemon too, where you have made friends of creatures from all over and bring them with you to battle and adventure.
I guess I was trying to accommodate all of these ideas. That is why I introduced the talent system. I wanted to leave the base class pretty sparse so that the player could create the character they wanted, thematically, through talent choices.
Skills, Saves, Proficiencies I based these off of Ranger and Hunter, which I think are close comparisons both thematically and mechanically. I especially want to leave the skills, but that may be because I love skills. I could see reducing the martial proficiency, as this class is more focused on the creatures than fighting. Hmmm. You make a great point about using companions as meat shields (which I hadn't even considered). Maybe I should add something about that, some kind of penalty for losing a creature.
Beast's Pact Good call on the Charisma clause. I don't think I want to change the time required though.. I really like the concept you have, using the beast heart's main class feature as a plot point, and I see how that facilitates this. I wrote in that the beast heart can travel with the creature during the pact process, so it doesn't stop the party from travelling or anything, it just stops the beast heart from using the creature in combat or as a scout right away. Again, I like your idea though, I am going to think on it more.
Your idea of having each creature stay in its territory is also very interesting. I will have to think on this a lot more too. My vision of the class was more an empath and collector, but your idea is very very thematic to a "friend of beasts" kind of character.
I might move the Command and Dominate stuff to talents.
Final Question I changed it to starting at 1st level companion and then scaling accordingly. Yes its a balancing attempt; the idea is to be able to get a creature at low levels and keep it with you, but make it relevant next to higher CR creatures.
@All: now I am thinking I might change the talent stuff too. Instead, have a "talent package" chosen early on. Each package, lets call it Origin for now, represents what kind of beast heart you are and how you interact with beasts. This might be similar to a ranger's combat style or a cleric's domain. So you might be a more ranger-like character, and you are more based around fighting alongside your companion, tracking, guiding, etc. Or you might have a more druid-based Origin, allowing you to summon nature's ally and call on other beasts you have made a pact with. Etc.. I will have to think about it.
Sorry, one more thought for all who care to read it.
Because I have such a varied view of what the class should do, other than that I want it to be able to recruit a variety of companions, maybe I can write it as a feat chain instead? This would allow any class with an animal companion (or maybe any class? hmmm...) to recruit new beasts that they encounter, and keep a small group of companions (but still only one with them at a time). For example, a druid could take this feat chain to basically gain the Beast's Pact class feature. This would allow the player to be druid, a ranger, a hunter, etc. but still get the roaming beast empath idea.
Thoughts? How might I format this feat chain? How many feats to make it completely functional? Is Beast's Pact too strong as a single feat?
Sorry, one more thought for all who care to read it.
Because I have such a varied view of what the class should do, other than that I want it to be able to recruit a variety of companions, maybe I can write it as a feat chain instead? This would allow any class with an animal companion (or maybe any class? hmmm...) to recruit new beasts that they encounter, and keep a small group of companions (but still only one with them at a time). For example, a druid could take this feat chain to basically gain the Beast's Pact class feature. This would allow the player to be druid, a ranger, a hunter, etc. but still get the roaming beast empath idea.
Thoughts? How might I format this feat chain? How many feats to make it completely functional? Is Beast's Pact too strong as a single feat?
So definitely not a good idea to do it as a feat. The idea sounds good but falls into the same path as a lot of other feats, they are either overpowered, or no one wants them.
The class feature is fat too powerful to be a single feat. It would need to be at least 3 or have a high number of fairly irrelevant (not ones players are already taking) to get. Think of it this way. To get improved familiar bond (A feat that gives you a full familiar no matter your class) you have to take iron will and familiar bond first. This means you've at least got to dump 2 if your feats into it just to get a familiar, assuming you wanted iron will.
Most players only get to maybe lvl 11 or 12. Long long games can go to higher or start higher but these are a lot rarer. I just don't think it would have value as a feat chain that is enough to justify the typical player to take it. I'm not a supporter of min maxing but it's honestly what a lot of people do.
I'd highly suggest you keep it as a class.
Also to further explain why I shortened the time it is because without shortening the time that means for 6 days (3 checks 2 days per check) the beast is actually less useful then a summoned creature in many ways. Having them be able to communicate with you and guide you is nice but also less useful then a survival check to find your way and casting speak with animals. Unless they have a way of actively using that animal in combat or scouting within a few hours of setting out the majority of parties are going to have a faster way to accomplish the same task. That's the only reason I changed it honestly. You need to have the Beast Heart bring more to the table in the immediate sense. In the long term you've got it down. But short term (combat length, 1 round, hours, minutes, ect) it brings very little and none of the short term benefits won't be overshadowed by other members.
Oh and I don't just mean wizards and clerics will overshadow. I get they can do just about everything.
@Aeolus Wind King: I think you are right about the feat. I am going to think a little more on it but I think I will ultimately come to the same conclusion as you.
I get what you are doing with shortening the checks. But, in my vision of the class, you still have your current companion with you while you are in the process of getting a new pact member. So you don't gain the immediate help of a new creature but you aren't gimped during that process; you still have all of your class features during the process.
That said, I really do like the idea of being able to recruit an "animal guide" in an area. I am going to think about this more and see how I can incorporate it.
I am considering changing the whole pact making process. I think I might have the Monstrous Empathy ability allow the beast heart to make a Handle Animal check to influence a creature's attitude, as per Diplomacy, but make a second check (18 + creatue's CR or something) to make the change in attitude permanent. Then, the Beast's Pact feature with include a spell against Will that, if successful, begins the pact making process. The process is not complete until you have used the Monstrous Empathy feature to make the creature Helpful towards you.
Example: You find an Unfriendly creature (CR 4) and decide you want to make it a pact member. You want to use Monstrous Empathy to improve its attitude before you try beginning the pact process. It has a charisma of +1, so the DC to improve its attitude one step is 21. You roll a 26. You exceeded the check by 5, so it improves another step. The creature is now Friendly towards you. You make a second with a DC of 22 (18 + 4) to make the check permanent. You roll a 21. No penalty, but the creature's attitude will probably revert in about a day. You then want to begin the pact making process, so you cast the spell (Initiate Pact maybe?) and the creature fails the Will save. Now the creature will follow you around for the next seven days. The creature will become a pact member and companion after its attitude becomes helpful permanently. If you are unable to change its attitude to helpful within the week, the creature reverts to indifferent, flees, and is now immune to Initiate Pact.
What this does is allows the beast heart to make permanent animal friends using Monstrous Empathy anywhere and everywhere he goes. However, making one into a companion is a much longer and more involved process.
I am a little worried that the DC to influence attitudes of unhelpful or hostile creatures is far too high at level one to ever be achieved. I am not sure how to change this, unless I write my own DCs that are based more on the creatures. For example, maybe the DC is statically 15 + creature's hit dice + creature's wisdom modifier. Every step has this DC but exceeding by 5 or more increases by another step (10 would increase by two steps, etc). Thoughts?
If you have a companion already while gaining a new one then does the class get one at 1st level? If they don't you still run into the same issues at 1st level.
Also you should really clarify that companions gained this way that are not listed on the base and extended druid companions are not eligible for the Feat boon companion. SERIOUS THIS CLASS GETS REALLY REALLY BROKEN WITH BOON COMPANION. Just to tell you Boon Companion raises the effective animal companion level of your animal companion by 4. Up to your character level.
In addition if you are looking at this class being able to have a number of different animal companions and not a lot else there isn't much effective difference between this class and a hunter pack master with good RP skills. I've had in my own personal games that I run my wife playing a Pack Master Hunter, when she went to gain a new companion she decided to use her RP skills to slowly gain the trust of a Dire Serval (Treated as a large Cat companion) and add it to her group. In effect this acts the same way but allows all your companions to be with you at the same time in combat. In that a Beast Heart would be strictly less powerful then a Hunter Pack Master and is filling only a slightly different niche then they would. Plus they get spells, and companion tricks, and hunter aspects, and bonus teamwork feats. Along with pretty much everything else you've already got.
The real bonus that you've come up with for this class is the ability to use the local creatures for local environments. Something that will always put you at a distinct advantage as they will be adapted to that environment. Like a mammoth having resistance to cold, or a monkey being able to climb and guide you through a ruined temple, or a beast of the sea helping to find air for you in an underwater maze. The possibilities of that are amazing. Dragging your companion from the last region or area into the new one runs into the same issues as the typical ranger/hunter/druid where their animal companion is usually (With the notable exception of winged creatures) at a disadvantage in certain environments. Examples are large creatures in cramped spaces, companions that can't scale or climb over things players will, heavy companions being harder to get over large gaps, most companions are useless in the water, the majority of the elemental planes are entirely off limits to most non-native animals. The possibilities of quickly picking up a companion in the new environment, and then being able to dismiss or hold onto that bond as you move to another environment is a huge bonus.
I completely get what you want to do with the class. And I respect that idea that you've got in mind for it. However if you try and execute it in that way it will simply end up outclassed at what it does by another subset of classes. Referring to the idea of having a small subset of companions and otherwise just having animals and beasts be friendly to him as he wanders about. Honestly at that point its just a Pack Lord Druid that only goes around with one companion and summons creatures to serve them in combat. But its worse because you can't just summon them and you don't get your extra animal companions automatically. And you can't have them all in combat at the same time.