1) I play BoHorus to "move, then may explore" and another BoHorus is the blessing discard ("When you play this card, if the top card matches you may move".
So what exactly happens here, and what would the timing be?
- Do I do the "matching" move first (which would be mostly inconsequencial except maybe for locations with beneficial 'when you move here' effects), THEN the "move, may explore"?
- do I do "move then may explore" first, and
- if I do - do I have the other move 'banked' for after the exploration?
- do the two moves happen simultaneously and I may chose?
2) I examine 'encounter Trigger' with BoBastet ("examine; if you encounter a bane - encounter it"). To me, for all intents and purposes - except the lack of the word Trigger itself- Bastet's power is a 'trigger' in essense, in that it immediately provokes an effect when you examine a bane.
- Is that what really happens? (so I can chose if I encounter because of Bastet, or the bane's own trigger - it matters)
- If not - do I have to encounter from the Bastet's or the bane's effect first (thereby discarding the other effect, as I cannot encounter the same card multiple times from several effects)
3)Blessing of Anubis - lets me add 2dice to a check VS Undead AND ignore their immunities. This seems intended to allow, say, playing Poison weapons VS the Undead. And we DID play it so for a dozen scenarios, but last night a player noted:
"Hey, I MUST play the Scorpion Whip in Determine Your Skill phase; if the monster's immune to Poison - I'm not allowed to do it. I *then* may play BoAnubis in Modify Your Check step - but even if I do, I cannot retroactively play the Whip to Determine My Skill... So, how hard do you say I'll have to bare-fist that Mummy Lord...?"
Well, d'oh!
So, RAW here seems pretty unambiguous, but we were left wondering if maybe we're missing something timing-wise as else the "ignore immunities" on BoAnubis is pretty useless...
Thatks in advance for the insight.
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1) While it isn't really stated in the rulebook when "after you play" a card is, I think it would be before actually executing the power. Consider this scenario: say Blessing of Erastil was the top card of the blessings discard, and you discard Blessing of Erastil to explore again. Whenever that situation comes up, I always follow the instruction to recharge instead of discarding it before actually doing that exploration. The alternative reading is that the blessing is kept in limbo until after the explore finishes, at which point I put it at the bottom of my deck, but I can't think of anyone who has argued it should be played that way and I would argue it is rather nonintuitive. If the recharge instead of discard happens before you explore, then the move from Horus should similarly happen before you explore. As a result, I believe the sequence goes:
1. Move due to matching top of blessings discard
2. Move due to power
3. Explore due to power
2) I would say that if you examined a Trigger, the Trigger would resolve first. This is due to Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else. Bastet has you examine the card, then encounter it if it's a bane. The trigger happens while you're examining whereas Bastet's encounter happens after you're done examining. As a result, Bastet's effect would be discarded should you examine a Trigger and be forced to encounter as a result of that Trigger.
3) I agree that RAW is unambiguous, which is a bit unfortunate. I would say that ignoring the immunity with Anubis would let you play something during Determine Which Skill even if it would otherwise technically be illegal. If that's truly the intent, we'd need an FAQ though.
skizzerz seems right on all counts.
The "ignore immunities" power of BoAnubis isn't *completely* useless -- after playing BoAnubis on a combat check against an Undead monster, you could then play a weapon that adds a bonus and the Poison trait to the check (for example). But it's a lot less useful than it looks like it should be.
I agree with both skizzerz and elcoderdude.
1) While it isn't really stated in the rulebook when "after you play" a card is, I think it would be before actually executing the power. Consider this scenario: say Blessing of Erastil was the top card of the blessings discard, and you discard Blessing of Erastil to explore again. Whenever that situation comes up, I always follow the instruction to recharge instead of discarding it before actually doing that exploration.
I wouldn't say those are quite equivalent: to me, BoErastil's 'matching' power changes the 'price' of playing it - so you must decide if you discard or recharge it, and only then you can benefit from the effect of playing it - adding dice.
BoHorus' 'matching' power -to me- seems to produce a 'concurrent' effect to the one you play the blessing for in the first place. I'm not saying you're not right, but the Erastil example doesn't convince me.For argument's sake, how y'all would judge it plays out if:
1.A) we presume these effects are simultaneous and I can pick the order - would I be able to 'bank' the 'matching move' for after any encounters and explores provoked by the 'move and explore'?
1.B) Would anything change in how you rule the timing and 'banking' if the matching power said "After you play this card.."?
I also have some more questions from the last game:
4) Telecinetic Trap (and similar) - barrier from the siege deck, that must be 'displayed next to its location". The Siege Deck is NOT a location. Do we ignore this 'impossible instruction and if 'yes' - what do we do with the barrier? Do we display it next to the *character's* location (since you "explore the card in Siege deck as if it's the next card in your location" - per Defensive Stance)? Do we display the barrier next to the Siege Deck itself (so each character is affected when exploring the Siege Deck, regardless of their location"? Finally, for purpose of "the barrier's location" - would it matter if we explore (which as said - is treated to be like the next location card) or if we *examine* - which may trigger effects and/or encounter, but which DOESN"T have the same "as if in location deck" provision as *explore*?
5) Dance of the Dead: says "if defeated, display next to the SCENARIO CARD", but then continues with "While displayed, YOU..." - the Rulebook lacks any steadfast rule about 'next to scenario' cards affecting all applicable characters, so it sound like "you" should only apply to the character who defeated the barrier. However, I feel like the intent is the opposite. Any possible rules that would swing this either way? (the "you" on monsters seems the closest, but I'm not sure of the logical link that would make me employ it)
6)Pard - 'examine the top card of your location deck...' - and by Defensive Stance, we examine the Siege Deck- "if it's a monster, you may put it on top or bottom of ITS location deck" - but the monster doesn't have a deck. This question has some similarities with the one above about Barriers, and actually applies to any "its location deck" monster powers. Again - do I ignore the second part of Pard's power (because monster's not part of location)? Do I treat Siege Deck as "its location"? Or do I in fact *take the monster out of the Siege deck* and put it on top/bottom of MY location deck? This last one is even more murky because Pard *examines*, but what would it be if we had, say, a Boa with "if undefeated, put it on top of its location" - by RAW this seems like it most definitely should transfer the Boa from Siege into a location deck?
Thanks again for the input.
1A) Either the matching power happens unconditionally before executing the regular power, or unconditionally after executing the regular power. There is no "you get to choose the order" -- they clearly do not happen at the same time. I argued for "unconditionally before" above because it's the only thing that made sense with recharge-instead-of-discard powers. I'm also not a fan of things that let you explore and then optionally do other things after you're done exploring. There is a lot that can happen in the course of an exploration, and having a pending move after you're done exploring would rub me the wrong way from a memory and timing standpoint (what if you got another explore due to the explore or beat a henchmen, do you get to explore again or attempt to close right away since it says immediately, or do you have to execute the move first, and if the move is first does moving preclude you from exploring again, etc. etc.). As a result, if there's a timing question where the choices are "do X and then explore" or "explore and then do X", I will always choose the former absent hard rules to the contrary.
1B) The matching power does say "After you play this card" for both Erastil and Horus. Hence what I wrote above.
4) I'd say you would display it next to the character's location per that instruction you quoted on Defensive Stance: the card as treated as if it were in the character's location deck, and as a result the location of the card is the character's location.
5) The "you" would apply to all characters, given the central location of the displayed card. The way I rule this is based on the "scope" of where it is displayed next to. If a card is displayed next to a character, it affects only that character. If a card is displayed next to a location, it affects everyone at that location. If a card is displayed next to the scenario, it affects everyone.
6) You ignore the impossible instruction, so you examine the card and put it back on top (regardless of whether or not it's a monster). Point 4 is different because it tells you to treat the card as if it's from a particular location. Absent that text applying, you'd fall back to the golden rule of ignoring impossible instructions.
Thanks for the insight, skizzers.
1) Yeah, for the same reasons you mention - we fell on the side of 'matching move first' but it bothered us than we can't support it with a hard-and-fast rule.
5) This gave us pause due to a case with one of the S&S boons (Besmara's Bones? Or maybe it was a pirate flag of sorts? - that was displayed next to a Ship, with similar "you" in the wording - so we all took it to affect the whole party (when applicable), but then the official stance came that it only affects the player who played that card. But I think there *was* an official agreement back then, that the card should've been displayed next to a character, rather than the Ship...
6) OK, we agree again. So you *would* say that if I explored a Boa and it was undefeated - I would move it OUT of Siege Deck and INTO Location deck? Which is potentially even better than just defeating it in a Defensive Stance scenario?
On last timing conundrum (which has similarities to 1) ):
7) Simoun ("when you move, you may examine the top of your location deck [X} if it's a monster, you may encounter it and add 1d6 Electricity to your checks", but also "when you explore your location, you may evade your encounter and move") plays a BoHorus to "move, then explore":
- so I do move from BoHorus first
- do I now A)examine or B)explore from Horus
- if 7B - do I 7C) 'bank' the examine for after the exploration
- if 7C - if I evade my encounter and move - do I now have 2 stacked examines? (so I examine 1, encounter if it's a monster/Trigger, then I may examine again?)
- 7D - due to similarities with 2)(BoBastet) - am I correct in assuming, that if examine a Trigger-encounter monster, I may NOT add 1d6 to my checks against it (because I encounter it through its own Trigger, which occurs before the "you may encounter it" from Simoun's power)?
5) I was thinking of that discussion as well, actually, but couldn't find it. It seems it was never FAQed to change where it was displayed, as far as I can tell. Doesn't change my response any :)
6) I'll have to get back to you on this when I have more time to fully read the rules on Defensive Stance and the Siege deck. There's a good chance I'll forget entirely. Unless someone wants to quote them...
Initial guess though is that yes, you'd shuffle it back into the location deck, which helps you out a bit.
7) Assuming my timing statement in question 1 is correct (so you move due to matching first):
1. Move due to matching Blessing of Horus
2. Examine top card of new location due to Simoun power
3. Encounter the examined card if it's a monster
4. Move due to Blessing of Horus power
5. Examine top card of new location due to Simoun power
6. Encounter the examined card if it's a monster
7. Explore due to Blessing of Horus power
8. Evade the encounter and move due to Simoun power
9. Examine top card of new location due to Simoun power
10. Encounter the examined card if it's a monster
If a power contains multiple instructions, you follow those instructions in the order listed (e.g. if it says "move then explore" you move, and then you explore). Each instruction can be "interrupted" by powers that activated whenever something happens (aka "reaction powers" -- that's not a game term, just what I like calling them). So a power that reacts to a move happens immediately when you move, and before you proceed with the next instruction on whatever power made you move. By applying that, you arrive at the sequence above.
If the examined card is a Trigger, that is a reaction power and therefore inserts itself between the examine and Simoun's encounter power. So say the card examined in step 5 is a Trigger; that means you insert a new step in between steps 5 and 6 to handle the trigger's power.
If a power contains multiple instructions, you follow those instructions in the order listed (e.g. if it says "move then explore" you move, and then you explore). Each instruction can be "interrupted" by powers that activated whenever something happens (aka "reaction powers" -- that's not a game term, just what I like calling them). So a power that reacts to a move happens immediately when you move, and before you proceed with the next instruction on whatever power made you move.
Thanks! That was a really concise and table-friendly summation.
I really can't agree that something you do "after" playing a card can happen before following all of the instructions of the power you're playing. "When" you play a card covers the whole stretch of time between deciding to play it and finishing following the instructions. "After" playing the card means after that, i.e. after following all the instructions. There's no reason for it to mean "after deciding to play the card but before following the instructions", nor "after following the first instruction but before the others".
The comparison to recharge instead of discard powers isn't relevant. The BofErastil power applies "when" playing the card, and makes you play the card differently (specifically by recharging instead of discarding). You recharge it first because, and only because, the discard you're replacing is the first instruction. The BofHorus matching power on the other hand doesn't change the way you play the card, it just says to do an additional, separate thing afterwards.
I think I otherwise agree with Skizzerz.
Though it does make me realise the phrase "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" really isn't that helpful. Most of the time the problem you have is "I've discovered I'm doing two things at once, which do I finish first?", and the answer it gives you is just "One [of those two] Thing[s]", as opposed to the other one a.k.a. "Something Else". Case in point (2). "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" could be interpreted as "Finish [One Thing = Examining and its consequences] Before You Start [Something Else = The next step of resolving the BHor]", or it could be interpreted as "Finish [One Thing = Playing the BHor] Before You Start [Something Else = Resolving triggers]".
I actually agree with Skizzerz's interpretation of what to do, but I'd say if anything it's despite not because of "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else", since if anything the thing you end up finishing first (the trigger) is actually the thing you hadn't even started yet.