How would you stat out the CCG as an organization near the start of book 2? I'd like to do organization vs. organization to model a city-wide fight between the Hell's Rebels and them.
My campaign has hit book two, where the party has begun a street war with the Queensmen. The Queensmen (my version of the CCG) are being inspired by House Sarini's scions. Their daughter had some younger Queensmen infiltrate a wildcat protest by the student quarter after the Bridge Tax, while the eldest two sons led an armed counter-protest to turn it into a riot. House Thrune has already responded with installing Zella Zidlii as Rector overseeing the Lady Docur school and Alabaster Academy.
So, in addition, what would you have the Queensman organization do to try to combat the Silver Ravens?
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Eh.... don't go too far down the rabbit hole on this one.
Floundering thug governments don't have real plans. If you read the AP the plan is basically to randomly terrorize the city until it shuts up.
The PCs only advantage is that Barzillai is distracted and lets the thrune loyalists deal with the growing unrest, which then spawns more unrest. Because they are ham-fisted and dumb.
If you want to add more character to the regime and its supporters, go ahead. But don't waste yours or your player's time detailing an enemy which is supposed to be a stupid bully.
now, if you want to have a really sinister evil faction, like the Sarinis, then go right ahead. but don't dig down too much into them infiltrating the opposition, because remember, someone like the Sarinis is the Starscream. They want to hurt the Silver Ravens and then make a deal with them, turning them against someone else (maybe staging a prison raid or something) on the Thrune side.
So... the PCs have to make a deal with a devil against another devil. That's kinda cool. And there's tons of fun enemies in Book 4 which can get fleshed out a bit more (and some which are hinted at in Book 6) so when you do that stuff, the PCs have a history with it.
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My campaign has hit book two, where the party has begun a street war with the Queensmen. The Queensmen (my version of the CCG) are being inspired by House Sarini's scions. Their daughter had some younger Queensmen infiltrate a wildcat protest by the student quarter after the Bridge Tax, while the eldest two sons led an armed counter-protest to turn it into a riot. House Thrune has already responded with installing Zella Zidlii as Rector overseeing the Lady Docur school and Alabaster Academy.
Infiltration and provocation make a good start. The Holy Grail for this strategy isn't, however, to make your enemies lose street fights, but to make them lose trust and cohesion. Plant evidence that trusted Ravens are collaborating (or even want to negotiate) with the government. Become trusted yourself and accuse others (especially the most militant and loyal members) of being provocateurs. Play up factional strife, whether based on ideological grounds or, more preferably, personal grudges.
So basically disinformation actions by their organization. I'm going to have to walk a line with the factional strife, as I just pulled two players out of a tailspin around a dispute about injecting the Calistrian faith into the resistance, followed by one of those players accidentally killing the other's character with a spell. Last session all was forgiven and fixed.
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So basically disinformation actions by their organization. I'm going to have to walk a line with the factional strife, as I just pulled two players out of a tailspin around a dispute about injecting the Calistrian faith into the resistance, followed by one of those players accidentally killing the other's character with a spell. Last session all was forgiven and fixed.
you can easily derail your campaign getting into stuff like that. several DMs on these forums have described problems with letting their players get too excited about the betrayal and double cross within the party and it subsequently sending the campaign into a tail spin.
when stuff looks like its getting this way, Thrune's got plenty of fun bad guys to throw at the party and get them back on track.
This is the track that I want them to do. Much of Book 2 is flawed and needs tweaking. The Queensmen make a level-appropriate opponent, especially with Sarini children involved as their leaders for a boss battle. (Thrune doesn't have much role here until the very end. My plan It allows me to get the nobles in the narrative earlier than they're used in the canonical plot. I went to a great deal of trouble to set up antagonism with the Queensmen, and this will advance 4 PCs' plot lines. Revolutionaries fighting counter-revolutionaries isn't something I want to avoid.
Perhaps a verbal duel mechanic from Ultimate Intrigue to game the battle for hearts and minds? (I do agree with you, though, that due to table pressures, I'm going to skip the sow dissension between PCs, although I may have the NPCs square off due to those tactics--the killed the imp before he had a chance to do the betrayal plotline.)
Sabotage actions?
Guarantee event actions to simulate street battles?
Would they import weapons or mercenaries?
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This is the track that I want them to do. Much of Book 2 is flawed and needs tweaking. The Queensmen make a level-appropriate opponent, especially with Sarini children involved as their leaders for a boss battle. (Thrune doesn't have much role here until the very end. My plan It allows me to get the nobles in the narrative earlier than they're used in the canonical plot. I went to a great deal of trouble to set up antagonism with the Queensmen, and this will advance 4 PCs' plot lines. Revolutionaries fighting counter-revolutionaries isn't something I want to avoid.
Perhaps a verbal duel mechanic from Ultimate Intrigue to game the battle for hearts and minds? (I do agree with you, though, that due to table pressures, I'm going to skip the sow dissension between PCs, although I may have the NPCs square off due to those tactics--the killed the imp before he had a chance to do the betrayal plotline.)
Sabotage actions?
Guarantee event actions to simulate street battles?
Would they import weapons or mercenaries?
i think that's a good idea - getting the nobles involved earlier.
they just kinda arrive in book 5. they really should be present in books 2, 3, and 4.
i like the Ultimate Intrigue idea. I imagine that Kintargo is the kinda place where there's street theater - particularly since the Opera House is shut down. Have the PCs run across a pro-Thrune performance and have them square off with a bard spouting regime propaganda.
No need for combat. Just skill checks and role-play. That might be fun.
I think some ideas include:
- Denouncing the Silver Ravens as anarchist demon-lovers
- Use of pamphlets and street speakers to spread slogans: "The price of peace is eternal vigilance against anarchy", "Only villains need disguises", "A place for everyone and everyone in his place", "Peace through Order, Order through Compliance", "If Hell stands with us, who can stand against Cheliax?", "Hell serves the nobility. Who are you to rebel?"
- An emphasis on the law in messaging, but also the Sarinis make a mistake of emphasizing diabolism given their House interests
- Instigating violence then blaming the Silver Ravens for it
- Race-baiting the Tieflings
- Due to character backgrounds, the Sarinis actually know one of the Silver Ravens as a former servant. One was using a magic mask to impersonate him. That might be the attempt to sow dissension in the ranks.
Their [awful] poem to counter the Poison Pen
Tears of a Dottari
I have been where you fear to go
I have seen what you fear to see
I have done what you fear to do
All these things I’ve done for you.
I am the one you lean upon
The one they cast their scorn upon
The one you bring your troubles to
All these people I’ve been for you.
The one you ask to stand apart
The one they feel should have no heart
The one you call the men in crimson
But I am human and not a demon.
And through the years I’ve come to see
That I can’t be what they ask me to be
So take this bade and take this truncheon
Will you take it? Will anyone?
If the Queensmen were an organization by book 2, how many supporters would they have?
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If the Queensmen were an organization by book 2, how many supporters would they have?
the key thing with kintargo is that support for thrune is extremely conditional. while lots of people might make a bustle about being loyal to the queen, they aren't genuine about it. when push comes to shove, they abandon egorian.
so there's not native Kintargans going after the silver ravens on their own full time (unless they are particularly nefarious, like the Sarinis).
the dotari do that kind of stuff. ordinary citizens don't.
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the dotari do that kind of stuff. ordinary citizens don't.
Utter nonsense. "Ordinary citizens" are not a monolithic bloc; if they were, the CCG wouldn't exist in the first place. Committed loyalists may be a minority, but they are not nonexistent, and they can make their smaller numbers tell through discipline and with the help of powerful patrons.
That said, they probably shouldn't outright outnumber the Silver Ravens even by the end of Book 2, so figure about 6 leaders including Tombus, about 20-30 cadre, and about 100-150 supporters (in other words, equivalent to about a Rank 9 organization).
Dammit. I forgot about Tombus. I'm going to have to either cut him in favor of the Sarinis, reskin him as lower level, or count on the party owning his poor will save. He's an Aristocrat 4/Rogue 9. If he can flank, he can take out the entire party one by one: they're 4th level right now, albeit close to 5.
I agree: rank 9 organization sounds about right.
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the dotari do that kind of stuff. ordinary citizens don't.Utter nonsense. "Ordinary citizens" are not a monolithic bloc; if they were, the CCG wouldn't exist in the first place. Committed loyalists may be a minority, but they are not nonexistent, and they can make their smaller numbers tell through discipline and with the help of powerful patrons.
That said, they probably shouldn't outright outnumber the Silver Ravens even by the end of Book 2, so figure about 6 leaders including Tombus, about 20-30 cadre, and about 100-150 supporters (in other words, equivalent to about a Rank 9 organization).
the militias who fight for tyrants of the Thrune sort do it for cash money. they show up when the boss pays them to and then go home at night.
book 5 makes it pretty clear this is the situation in kintargo.
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it's also important to note that in the book the Thrune loyalists, aside from Barzillai and the Sarinis, are all pretty stupid when it comes to the rising tide against them.
Barzillai isn't dumb, but he's really distracted, so he can't get his head around the revolution until the end of Book 3. The Sarinis are as smart as you want to make them. Of course, you can add whatever additional villains you would like to the AP - it's your story. But keep in mind that until Book 3 any important person in Kintargo has vastly more resources than the Silver Ravens.
No worries. I'm mostly trying to introduce secondary antagonists before it's time to fight them books later. Zella's there for two purposes--further the storyline of the schools and make the oppression personal (school's temporarily without books), and to serve as a red herring for the Varl Wex case. I don't think that I've actually introduced Tombus, and he's only shown leading a dottari troop anyway, so I think I can just drop him.
I'm not seeing the cash angle for the CCG. Do you have a page number for that?
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No worries. I'm mostly trying to introduce secondary antagonists before it's time to fight them books later. Zella's there for two purposes--further the storyline of the schools and make the oppression personal (school's temporarily without books), and to serve as a red herring for the Varl Wex case. I don't think that I've actually introduced Tombus, and he's only shown leading a dottari troop anyway, so I think I can just drop him.
I'm not seeing the cash angle for the CCG. Do you have a page number for that?
it's mostly implied by the beginning of 5. after the pc victory opposition scurries away quickly and the good guys are the masters of kintargo. there's no indigenous opposition anymore, thus my claim that support for egorian was thin and based on opportunism.
if you look at Earth at least, a lot of the same sorts of stupid, blundering, heavy handed tyrants can muster support to beat up students and protesters and stuff, but they do it by paying off local gangs and such. when/if the cash flow dries up, so does the muscle.
there's lots of secondary antagonists in 4 and hinted at in 6 which might be fun to introduce.
This worked out really, really well to model revolutionaries vs. counter-revolutionaries. I modeled street war through Earn Gold (had option to try to steal it from the other side), Guarantee Event (opposed security checks for street battles, deduct from supporters for the other side), Disinformation action (for lying about the other side), and Special Action (for propaganda, opposed Loyalty checks, deduct supporters from the other side if you win).
The players really got into it. They have a real fervor against the Sarinis now and are thinking about a heist to cut their cash flow to their supporters and really, really want to take out this noble family.
On the down side, I now have to create a lot more detail about the Sarinis.
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it's mostly implied by the beginning of 5. after the pc victory opposition scurries away quickly and the good guys are the masters of kintargo. there's no indigenous opposition anymore, thus my claim that support for egorian was thin and based on opportunism.
The Bad Guys in Book 5 are in basically the same position as the Good Guys were at the beginning of Book 1. Their government has fallen to a coup d'état, their leadership is dead or imprisoned, and their rank and file have been terrorized into submission. Of course they're mostly a non-presence immediately after such a defeat. According to Book 1, it took at least a week for the Good Guys to even begin to rally; the Silver Ravens as an organization didn't get on anybody's radar until between 1 and 2 months after the Night of Ashes. But Book 6's Continuing the Campaign section points out that Ravounel's history of civil conflict is far from over.