So, I'm playing a Shirren Exocortex Mechanic wielding Longarms in combat. We're level 3 at this point, so the extra 1d6 damage from Overcharge is quite nice. And I could get more if I get better Overcharge tricks.
However, then I look at what the Operative is getting just for being an Operative and it's just a frankly ridiculous amount of extra damage dice on their Trick Attack. I've never seen the skill check from Trick Attack fail, so it's very reliable, too.
If my Mechanic goes all-in on Overcharge, they're going to be hyper-specialized and at level 20, they're getting... 7d6 extra damage. And I'd have to pass up a lot of nice tricks, too.
Meanwhile, the Operative is just getting extra damage for free and 10d8 of it at the end.
Yes, they can only do this with Small Arms and Operative Weapons, but the damage is still huge. Sure, the best Longarm is better than the best Small Arm, but also costs way more. I just don't see how I could ever compete, given the same amount of cash.
Is Overcharge just no good and should I just go with Full Attacks? That doesn't seem like it's gonna work at low-to-mid levels. Heavy Weapons are an option, too, but that's two feats (or a feat and Exocortex Mod) to get Specialization which is a big investment.
How on Earth am I not going to be completely outclassed by freaking everything in combat?
To be frank, I'm currently debating how combat-heavy I want to go in the first place, given that we have a Soldier and an Operative on the team. I might want to go more hacking-focused, but we also have a Technomancer who gets higher bonuses on Computers (Techlore every 3 levels vs Bypass every 4), so I dunno.
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Overcharge is actually BETTER in my opinion if you have a combat-heavy group. The fact that you can boost your damage with a Standard AND boost an adjacent ally with a Move (or boost two allies with double-move) means you're doubling the effectiveness of the ability each round. If you have a lot of available allies to use as targets, you can take advantage a lot more frequently.
Two people having Computers is not a bad thing, especially since Exocortex can make those checks in some ways the Technomancer couldn't (being able to do it at range, do it while still attacking, etc.) You could also look at some of the other more Engineering-focused skills/tricks.
One final note about the Operative damage - don't forget that Small Arms only gets half-level to Weapon Specialization, so it's even more stunted in terms of damage before you add Trick Attack. Overcharge Exocortex can absolutely keep up or exceed Operative on combat.
Overcharge is actually BETTER in my opinion if you have a combat-heavy group. The fact that you can boost your damage with a Standard AND boost an adjacent ally with a Move (or boost two allies with double-move) means you're doubling the effectiveness of the ability each round. If you have a lot of available allies to use as targets, you can take advantage a lot more frequently.
Ouh, I hadn't thought of that! And the Overcharge on allies' weapons works with any single attack the ally does with that weapon, including, for example, my buddy's Trick Attack.
One final note about the Operative damage - don't forget that Small Arms only gets half-level to Weapon Specialization, so it's even more stunted in terms of damage before you add Trick Attack. Overcharge Exocortex can absolutely keep up or exceed Operative on combat.
I had included that in my calculations and Trick Attack was still more damage on average. But if I'm essentially adding Overcharge twice a round (once to me, once to an ally), then yeah, that's pretty huge. And while the Operative makes enemies flat-footed (essentially +2 to attack), Combat Tracking gives +5 to attack from level 17 onwards.
How many Superior Overcharge tricks would you consider sensible? Four is the maximum, but most of the level 14+ tricks are extremely good, especially Ultraclocking and Improved Resistant Energy.Y'know, I'm really missing an "Extra Mechanic Trick" feat. The equivalent is my Alchemist's bread and butter in Pathfinder.
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Unlike trick attack overcharge also works with several area effects like Explosive. So that damage might be multiplied across a 15' blast at level 5 with a shock caster. Don't get me wrong, in general the Operative will outdamage you, and if they want to they'll also be better at engineering and computers. But you have your own tricks and can quickly become everyone's favorite person to stand next to. There are plenty of good tricks, like adding your bypass to perception, but overcharge is my personal favorite combat trick.
Nice choice choosing exocortex. I personally love it.
I wouldn't go damage. I think of the mechanic with exocortex as a combat hacker. Combat Tracking is awesome and so is wireless hacking. When I crunched the numbers you are the class that has the highest computers check. (I might be wrong of course.) Stick with partial combat and the majority into computers.
Also if my math is correct the mechanic has higher damage capability.
Operative
Baton Adv 8d6
Trick Attack 10d8
Able to attack 1x (plus whatever nonsense they choose)
Total Average 65 damage
Mechanic
Laser rifle zenith 11d6
Charge 4d6
Able to attack 2x
Total Average 92 damage
IMO the operative is overpowered. I think one of the devs really loved the rogue and decided the operative would be a good class to try and overshadow everything else.
Unlike trick attack overcharge also works with several area effects like Explosive.
That's a good point. Should probably go for Heavy Weapons then. I can get Heavy Weapon Proficiency at level 7 with Exocortex Mods and getting the Specialization at the same level would be pretty sick.
When I crunched the numbers you are the class that has the highest computers check. (I might be wrong of course.)
How so? Operative's Edge, Bypass and Techlore all go up to +6.
Also if my math is correct the mechanic has higher damage capability.
Operative
Baton Adv 8d6
Trick Attack 10d8
Able to attack 1x (plus whatever nonsense they choose)
Total Average 65 damageMechanic
Laser rifle zenith 11d6
Charge 4d6
Able to attack 2x
Total Average 92 damage
How are you attacking twice with your laser rifle and still overcharging? Overcharge is a Standard Action to both charge and fire. You can't Overcharge a full attack.
Also, you didn't take Weapon Specializiation into account. It's more like:Operative:
8d6 + 10d8 + 10 = 83 damage
Mechanic:
11d6 + 4d6 + 20 = 72.5 damage (with 4d6 Overcharge)
11d6 + 7d6 + 20 = 83 damage (with 7d6 Overcharge)
2 * (11d6 + 20) = 117 damage (hitting twice)
So, if only the Mechanic is attacking, attacking twice is way better than Overcharge. Of course, it's less accurate, but it only takes two charges instead of three and does more damage.
As the sole attacker, to get the same damage as an Operative, I have to go all-in on Overcharge while the Operative just gets damage scaling for free.
However, considering that I can Overcharge my Soldier buddy's heavy weapon, it can really make the donuts. Even adding 4d6 to a single enemy through an ally, that puts the 4d6 Overcharge DPR at 86.5, slightly higher than the Operative's, and that's not even taking explosions into account.
I wouldn't go damage. I think of the mechanic with exocortex as a combat hacker.
Weeeell, we already have a mostly non-combat hacking character in our Android Technomancer which is why I'm mostly looking at my combat options.
Unlike trick attack overcharge also works with several area effects like Explosive.
Explode is actually the only AoE effect Overcharge works with, as Line and Blast both specifically state they are not affected by things that benefit only a single attack. Of course, this does nothing to make Overcharging a Shock Caster or Plasma Cannon less effective at dealing with crowds; it merely means your alternatives in that area are functionally nothing. Note also that Exploding weapons do get weapon specialization damage; it is grenades specifically that do not, rather than the Explode property.
Using your move action to buff an ally with Overcharge is certainly viable. However, do remember that as a Touch range effect, you must actually touch the ally's weapon. While not an issue for Small Arms, using Longarms or Heavy Weapons will raise the question of what you are doing to touch your ally's weapon without shifting your grip, which is a swift action.
As for Computers check, a Mechanic in general does not get a higher end modifier a the Technomancer or an Int-focused Operative. However, an Exocortex Mechanic specifically gets Coordinated Assault applied to hacking the same target as the Exocortex, which is an additional bonus that neither of them get. You could get a similar bonus with Aid Another, true, but so could an ExoMech. The initial assertion is still wrong, though. The Envoy actually gets the highest modifier for Computers checks if they have the Int to support it. However, they have to forego that bonus to do things like hack faster or disable countermeasures, which the Mechanic and Operative can simply do with no additional sacrifice beyond their choice of trick or exploit.
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@Hithesius:True, that was bad phrasing on my end, though personally I think explosive is easily preferable to the others anyway. I was thinking of the several energy based explosive weapons, not weapon effects like line or blast.
And I agree, the envoy is the best at whatever skill it wants to focus on by a long shot so long as it's on the approved list. The operative is next as it scales faster. I think there are more computer tricks for the operative and mechanic but the Envoy does have their own tricks too and they're worth considering.
As for the touch limit, it's not much of a worry. Standard action fire, swift change to one hand on weapon, move charge your ally's weapon. Next round reverse that. It's only an issue if you somehow threaten with the weapon, and I don't think many mechanics are using melee and overcharge. Or of course just get yourself more than two arms.
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Nice choice choosing exocortex. I personally love it.
I wouldn't go damage. I think of the mechanic with exocortex as a combat hacker. Combat Tracking is awesome and so is wireless hacking. When I crunched the numbers you are the class that has the highest computers check. (I might be wrong of course.) Stick with partial combat and the majority into computers.
Also if my math is correct the mechanic has higher damage capability.
Operative
Baton Adv 8d6
Trick Attack 10d8
Able to attack 1x (plus whatever nonsense they choose)
Total Average 65 damageMechanic
Laser rifle zenith 11d6
Charge 4d6
Able to attack 2x
Total Average 92 damageIMO the operative is overpowered. I think one of the devs really loved the rogue and decided the operative would be a good class to try and overshadow everything else.
While the conclusion is correct, I'm not sure this is quite the right math to compare. You're comparing KAC melee to EAC ranged, and not including static bonuses. A closer apples to apples comparison:
Operative:
+15 BAB + 2 Weapon Focus + Dex
Gyrojet pistol, elite 5d12 (5*6.5 = 32.5 avg)
1/2 level specialization (+10)
10d8 Trick attack (45)
+17+Dex, 5d12+10d8+10 = 87.5 avg
Exocortex Mechanic
+20 BAB + 1 Weapon Focus + Dex
Seeker Rifle, Paragon 12d8 (12*4.5=54 avg)
level specialization (+20)
Overcharge (4*3.5=14 avg)
+21+Dex, 12d8+4d6+20 = 88 avg
The net +4 to hit difference, assuming 50/50 base odds to hit for the operative and the same Dexterity, means the Exocortex Mechanic is doing roughly 40% more damage on average in a fight. Even if you include the flat footed bonus for the Operative in their to-hit and not the Mechanic, that is still 20% more damage using Overcharge on just their own weapon. Using their move on an ally's weapon with an extra arm would add another 16% or so.
Edit: Just hit me the Paragon Seeker Rifle isn't a valid target for Overcharge. So I guess the better comparison is EAC targeting weapons, like a Laser Rifle, Zenith (11d6 =38.5 avg damage) and a Plasma Pistol, Bluestar (5d8=22.5 avg). This shifts it 5.5 damage in favor of the Operative (77.5 vs 72.5), but the to-hit still winds up mattering more in the long run.
I was just saying I like exocortex. Didn't think it was going to turn into a rules beatdown.
How so? Operative's Edge, Bypass and Techlore all go up to +6.
Mechanics get other hacking things. It's all in the tricks. Don't feel like writing them down.
How are you attacking twice with your laser rifle and still overcharging? Overcharge is a Standard Action to both charge and fire. You can't Overcharge a full attack.
You're right. My bad. With miracle worker you can get a +2 on attacking and damaging. Taking the minus to attacking lower. Attack twice means you have a higher output.
My friend and I playing quite the dynamic duo: myself, a ysoki exocortex mechanic with a maze core shock caster/laser rifle; he's playing a kasatha bombard soldier with a shock caster and dragonglaive. I use overcharge on him, then on me. He delays his action until I've boosted his damage. At level 8, we can easily do a couple hundred damage, depending on how closely enemies are grouped, and how high their reflex save is. But guaranteed half damage is nice regardless.
With my laser rifle, I can take care of long range, and he takes care of melee with his reach weapon, striking at least once before they can get close enough to hit us.
Since overcharge also works with powered melee weapons, I can boost his damage in melee too.