The 'Still Mind' Obstacle


Advice


I have not been able to locate much discussion on this topic and all the news I can find is bad. Here is the issue in a nutshell. The Zen Archer Monk gives up the Still Mind ability for Point Blank Master. I believe it's generally understood that this would prevent a Zen Archer Monk from taking Vows as well as taking the Champion of Irori/Enlightened prestige class as they both also require a substitute for Still Mind.

Does anyone know of any published material that provides a way around this issue including 3rd party material. I've heard a rumor of a trait that addresses it as well as the possibility that Unchained Monk Archetypes may allow for swapping of abilities, but I have been unable to locate anything. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks.

Sczarni

Probably better to move this over to the Advice Forum. I'll Flag it for you.

Vows were eventually errata'd to require Still Mind, but I've encountered players who haven't seen the updated wording, so you may encounter some people claiming you're fine taking Vows.

Since this must be for a homegame, have you asked your GM if they're okay just hand waving it? Or maybe trading out a different Class Feature?

Dark Archive

The argument is that a zen archer still has a ki pool and therefore can already take the vows. to quote ultimate magic

This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool.

I know this contradicts the rest of the book but it is there. So you can laugh and get the vows anyway. sucks for those who didnt trade out still mind.

Anyone with a ki pool can take vows to increase their ki pool. Says so right in the book. Now they did some half errata and didnt bother to change this bit. So you can arguably get the vows because paizo sucks at errata but people will be salty about it.

Sczarni

As I just wrote:
Vows were eventually errata'd to require Still Mind, but I've encountered players who haven't seen the updated wording, so you may encounter some people claiming you're fine taking Vows.

It would appear that Halek is one of the people I was just referencing.

Page 50 of the 2nd printing of Ultimate Magic wrote:
The ability to take these vows replaces the still mind class feature, even if the monk abandons all his vows.

Dark Archive

Yes but the line that any one with a ki pool can still use them is also still there. They only did half the errata to shut it down, and left a contradiction right in the lines above it.

This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool.

that means you can take it if you have a ki pool. They didn't bother actually changing this line in the book. This is obviously not RAI but hey halfway done errata and inconsistent editing is a paizo staple.

Sczarni

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Reading one sentence out of context will always skew any statement.


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I have to agree with Nefreet. There is no contradiction. There are two requirements. One, is being a "user of ki." The second is, "The ability to take these vows replaces the still mind class feature."

So, the character must both have a ki pool and the Still Mind class ability to trade out.


I'm surprised no one has come up with a work-around for this yet. I really want to play a Zen Champion.

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