I am currently considering a build that uses Life Shaman and Witch Doctor. These both give the ability to channel positive energy (only positive). I want to not be limited to only channeling positive energy though as my plan is to use Channel Smite to be able to affect both the living and the undead.
I understand that normally a Shaman would not be able to take Versatile Channeler. However, what if they get the feat from another means?
For instance, what if the character were to take a level of Cleric to obtain Channel Energy and took it for negative energy? Would he qualify for being able to take the feat then? And if he did qualify for taking the feat would he then be able to use it for his Shaman based channels?
What if the character took Adapt Channel feat? A Shaman automatically qualifies for that at 4th level. Would they then be able to take Versatile Channel?
I understand some people will be resistant to this idea. What about if the character took their first level as a Cleric and took Versatile as their feat. If later they gained levels as a Shaman would they be able to use that feat on any of their Channel Energy class features?
Prerequisites: Ability to cast divine spells, summon familiar class ability, caster level 4th, Charisma 13.
Benefit: You gain the channel energy class feature, as a cleric, usable 2 times per day. This ability otherwise functions like the cleric's channel energy ability, except that your effective cleric level is equal to your divine spellcasting class level –3. Unlike a cleric, however, the number of times per day you may channel energy is not affected by your Charisma modifier.
Benefit: You may make a choice whenever you use your channel energy class feature.
If you normally channel positive energy, you may choose to channel negative energy as if your effective cleric level were 2 levels lower than normal.
If you normally channel negative energy, you may choose to channel positive energy as if your effective cleric level were 2 levels lower than normal.
Having this feat means you qualify for feats and abilities that have "channel positive energy" or "channel negative energy" as a prerequisite (for example, you qualify for the Command Undead feat and the Turn Undead feat).
Note: This feat only applies to necromancers, neutral clerics who worship neutral deities, or neutral clerics who do not worship a deity -- characters who have the channel energy class ability and have to make a choice to channel positive or negative energy at 1st level. Clerics whose alignment or deity makes this choice for them cannot select this feat.
Huh, I feel like Adept Channel was meant for... actual Adepts. Seems to work for Shamans too.
That being said, I don't think you would meet the Necromancer or Neutrally aligned Cleric portion as you would only count as a neutral Cleric in terms of the Channel Energy feature.
It would not be unreasonable to allow but, RAW, you do not qualify.
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Huh, I feel like Adept Channel was meant for... actual Adepts. Seems to work for Shamans too.
I'm not convinced. The feat requires the "summon familiar class ability", which afaik only actual Adepts have.
Huh, I feel like Adept Channel was meant for... actual Adepts. Seems to work for Shamans too.I'm not convinced. The feat requires the "summon familiar class ability", which afaik only actual Adepts have.
Derp, yep. Shaman's feature is called Spirit Animal, right?
Want to Buy Variant Multiclassing: NPC classes edition.
So what about if I took it for a Cleric level at first level and the rest of my levels were Shaman. Could I use it for my Shaman channels?
Maybe? Versatile Channel states that whenever you use the channel energy class feature.
I understand the text "The shaman can channel positive energy like a cleric" to mean that you use the channel energy class feature to channel positive energy. This would mean that Versatile Channel would apply.
I can see others interpreting differently, though.
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I don't think it would work for channelling from a class that does not qualify for the feat. The line here:
Note: This feat only applies to necromancers, neutral clerics who worship neutral deities, or neutral clerics who do not worship a deity -- characters who have the channel energy class ability and have to make a choice to channel positive or negative energy at 1st level. Clerics whose alignment or deity makes this choice for them cannot select this feat.
indicates that the restriction on the feat is stronger than the usual pre-requisite - you not only need to be a necromancer or neutral cleric to take the feat but the feat only applies to those classes. Since channeling from separate classes is tracked separately, the benefits would not be applied to the second class.
Weirdo: If I took this as a neutral cleric who worships a neutral deity would it not apply to my character? Or are you making the argument that while it says "This feat only applies to necromancers, neutral clerics who worship neutral deities, or neutral clerics who do not worship a deity..." that it means that it only applies to the class abilities of those classes?
Caval: Four words: Phylactery of Negative Channeling. Or positive, I guess. Both most likely eventually. Anyway, as far as I can tell it applies to all of your separate pools of Channeling.
Weirdo: If I took this as a neutral cleric who worships a neutral deity would it not apply to my character? Or are you making the argument that while it says "This feat only applies to necromancers, neutral clerics who worship neutral deities, or neutral clerics who do not worship a deity..." that it means that it only applies to the class abilities of those classes?
Caval: Four words: Phylactery of Negative Channeling. Or positive, I guess. Both most likely eventually. Anyway, as far as I can tell it applies to all of your separate pools of Channeling.
If you had Cleric 1 / Shaman X, I could see Versatile Channeler working. Not sure why you'd want to go that route, but that's none of my business.
Or are you making the argument that while it says "This feat only applies to necromancers, neutral clerics who worship neutral deities, or neutral clerics who do not worship a deity..." that it means that it only applies to the class abilities of those classes?
Certainly the intent is that it only apply to the class abilities of those classes. Whether the actual wording conveys that is probably debatable, but given that the intent is clear and the wording could be read to match the intent, It seems entirely reasonable to read it that way.
I don't think a necromancer and a cleric of a good deity multiclass would be able to use this trick either to make the cleric channels versatile (although the necromancer ones clearly would be.)
Serisan: The reason is I want to play a Shaman who can Channel Negative Energy. The pay off is that I would get 3 separate channeling pools all of which can be affected by a Phylactery of Negative Channeling.
Dave Justus: Oh, I didn't know you had an inside scoop with the designer. Please enlighten me to the intent. Also, a link to the text explaining the intent would be awesome.
...sorry, I just dislike it when people claim that they know what the intent of anything is. I don't think that the intent is clearly opposed to my line of thinking. And your opinion of it being clear is just, well... an opinion.
Lune,
A plain reading of the feat limits the use of the ability to classes that get to choose their type of channeling based on their deity and/or alignment, specifically to necromancers and neutrally aligned clerics.
There are many ways to get a version of the channel energy class feature but very few that allow you to pick the type of channeling you get. This is limited to the following (If I'm missing any, understand I'm human):
Clerics (neutral aligned and neutral/no deity)
Necromancers
Empyreal Bloodline
Adept Channel
Warpriest Channel
VMC Cleric
Of these, two of the classes are called to out to work with Versatile Channel and an argument could be made for the Warpriest as one of its parent classes is a cleric. By RAW, Versatile Channel can only be used with the channel of those classes. We won't get into RAI as we can't know the developer's intention but some things we do know:
This feat was released in the same book as the Oracle (2011)
This feat was released after Adept Channel (2010)
This feat was released before the Shaman and Warpriest (2014)
The feat appears to be written in a way the precludes anyone but a cleric and necromancer to take and benefit from it. It would be a safe assumption that only Clerics and Necromancers get its benefits. That is a solid ruling for a rules thread question.
HOWEVER, I am in agreement with you as far as how it could should be used. Channel Energy is Channel Energy is Channel Energy. Whether its from lay on hands, fervor, oracle life mystery, shaman life spirit, witch hex channeling, or any other source. In my home games, I will allow any character that possesses the Channel Energy ability, has a neutral alignment and worships a neutral deity (or no deity or need for a deity, like the oracle) to take and use this feat.
tl;dr - Only Cleric and Necromancer class abilities but I'd allow it in home games.
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Channel Energy is Channel Energy is Channel Energy. Whether its from lay on hands, fervor, oracle life mystery, shaman life spirit, witch hex channeling, or any other source.
Except that all these sources of Channel Energy are tracked separately in the case of multiclassing, with separate uses per day and separate dice pools. So if you channel energy as a shaman, you shouldn't be able to apply any effects that specifically modify your cleric's channelling ability. I would not, for example, allow a cleric//necromancer to use variant channeling with their necromancy channel ability, since necromancers are not eligible to use variant channeling.
The additional note I quoted from the feat does emphasize the fact that you're not just required to be a neutral cleric but that the feat is only supposed to benefit neutral clerics (and not shamans) in the same way that variant channeling is only supposed to benefit classes that worship a deity.
I agree it's a reasonable house rule, but I am fairly certain that it would be a house rule.
Except that all these sources of Channel Energy are tracked separately in the case of multiclassing, with separate uses per day and separate dice pools.
Well, yes. They are separate abilities that essentially function in an identical manner. They do not stack unless they say they do.
I would not, for example, allow a cleric//necromancer to use variant channeling with their necromancy channel ability, since necromancers are not eligible to use variant channeling.
Nor would I. The rules strictly prohibit it.
"A character who has the channel energy ability from a class other than cleric may use these variant channeling rules if the class’s abilities are tied to serving a deity. For example, paladins can select alternative channeling abilities if they serve a deity, as can oracles with the Life mystery (as they serve many deities), but necromancer wizards cannot."
The additional note I quoted from the feat does emphasize the fact that you're not just required to be a neutral cleric but that the feat is only supposed to benefit neutral clerics (and not shamans) in the same way that variant channeling is only supposed to benefit classes that worship a deity.
I agree it's a reasonable house rule, but I am fairly certain that it would be a house rule.
The bulk of my post was directed at how Versatile Channel does not work outside of a neutral Cleric or a necromancer wizard (or possibly a Warpriest). Where did you get the idea that my allowing Verstaile Channel to be used with any channel source in a home game was anything other than a house rule?
DeathlessOne: I think that Weirdo was agreeing with you and stating to me that while he thinks it is a reasonable house rule that it is still a house rule.
The feat appears to be written in a way the precludes anyone but a cleric and necromancer to take and benefit from it.
I would agree with the taking of it. That is not in dispute. That is why the first level being Cleric is important. However, once the feat is obtained I do not see anything in the feat preventing it's use from Channel Energy obtained from another class.
The additional note I quoted from the feat does emphasize the fact that you're not just required to be a neutral cleric but that the feat is only supposed to benefit neutral clerics (and not shamans)...
But it doesn't say that. I know that people here are talking about a simple reading of the feat. But it doesn't say what you are saying that it says. There is nothing in the feat that states that once you have the feat that you can only use it for the class that you got it for. I would argue that it doesn't even imply that. It only simply states what you have to meet to obtain the feat. In other words, in the build that I am referring to the character would be a Neutral Cleric. He is other things as well. But he is also a Neutral Cleric. Thus per the verbiage of the feat it applies to the character. What you are talking about is splicing it down to be more granular than the text states and parsing things out by class abilities gained from other classes. The text of the feat makes no mention of this, though. It only states whether it applies to this character or not in the sense of whether or not they can select this feat.
At least that is the way I see it. It doesn't look like there has been any Dev posts on this or any kind of official ruling made then?
Lune,
Personally, I agree with you. I see nothing inherently wrong with using the feat in that manner. The way the feat is written, taking a level of Cleric certainly shortcuts the limitation on non-cleric channeling to be used with the feat. Whether or not that was intended is another matter. There is no way we can, for sure, know exactly what the author of the feat intended but we can definitely reach a logical level of certainty.
It was not meant to be used with Oracle Channeling (or Shaman for that matter). Why? They don't get to pick their energy type. They get positive. Also, the feat was released in the same book as the Oracle and left out mention of them in the feat. At that time, different sources of Channeling were still limited. The feat may have been a way of revitalizing interest in Cleric characters, to keep them on par with healing focused Oracles.
At least that is the way I see it. It doesn't look like there has been any Dev posts on this or any kind of official ruling made then?
There has not been, to my knowledge, any official rulings on this issue.
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And there almost certainly won't be any offical rulings, because a multiclassed cleric/shaman with versatile channel is a rare enough situation that it's not going to make a blip on the FAQ system. You could try asking a dev for an unofficial opinion in one of the "ask me anything" threads. Or you could check with your GM if it's a home game. If it's PFS I would expect table variation.
DeathlessOne: I think that Weirdo was agreeing with you and stating to me that while he thinks it is a reasonable house rule that it is still a house rule.
Correct.
There is nothing in the feat that states that once you have the feat that you can only use it for the class that you got it for. I would argue that it doesn't even imply that. It only simply states what you have to meet to obtain the feat. In other words, in the build that I am referring to the character would be a Neutral Cleric. He is other things as well. But he is also a Neutral Cleric. Thus per the verbiage of the feat it applies to the character. What you are talking about is splicing it down to be more granular than the text states and parsing things out by class abilities gained from other classes. The text of the feat makes no mention of this, though. It only states whether it applies to this character or not in the sense of whether or not they can select this feat.
If you are a multiclassed wizard/cleric, would you expect the "normal" section of Spell Mastery ("Without this feat, you must use a spellbook to prepare all your spells, except read magic") to also describe your cleric levels? Obviously at least some feats are written as if you were single classed, or at least as if any additional classes are beyond the scope of the feat. Notably, versatile channel reads "when you use your channel energy class feature" singular, which implies that the described feat user does not have more than one instance of the channel energy feature (that would be channel energy "features").
Prerequisites normally only check to see if the character checks off all the boxes and don't care where each prereq came from. However, the additional note included information that is more specific and implies a more limited application for the feat: "This feat only applies to... characters who have the channel energy class ability and have to make a choice to channel positive or negative energy at 1st level." This statement links the concepts of the channel energy feature as referenced elsewhere in the feat and the choice to channel positive and negative energy, implying that if your particular channel energy feature does not come with a choice it is not affected by this feat. This linking of the concepts of "channel energy as used in this feat" and "choice to channel" is why Dave, DeathlessOne, and I think the intent of this feat is fairly clear even if the wording is not.
If you prefer technicalities, the shaman doesn't have a "channel energy" feature, they have a "channel" feature, which merely acts as if it were "channel positive energy." Since the shaman's feature is "channel" and not "channel energy," it can't activate when using a feat that applies to "channel energy." (This is similar to the above technicality regarding Adept channel needing the "Summon Familiar" feature and not just a familiar.)
Weirdo:
Yeah, I hear ya. I still think that it works but I am benching the concept as I realize that it rests on too shaky of ground for me to depend on in PFS. Perhaps in a home game where I could get a ruling up-front.
I was using the SKR: things that are different should be different, etc. thing to justify channel = channel energy especially as it is something he specifically mentioned. The issue is the feat itself.
So. For a Channel Smite build do you have any ideas on good ways to get multiple sources of Channel pools, or a high number of uses/day?
So. For a Channel Smite build do you have any ideas on good ways to get multiple sources of Channel pools, or a high number of uses/day?
Sure, with either a Witch Doctor Shaman or Spirit Guide Oracle, Adept Familiar and the variant multiclass Cleric option. That would break down into 4 channel pools, three that run off of Charisma for their total uses and one that does not (pretty much an Extra Channel Feat) but it does allow you to choose positive/negative energy. At the very least, you'll have two pools that you can use to negatively smite living creatures and one to smite undead.
I recommend Oracle simply because of the Charisma synergy. Skip the Adept Channel feat entirely, since you don't get a familiar (though Wasp Familiar is an option). Your feats will be cut in half with VMC Cleric option.
You might be able to pull off something interesting with the Envoy of Balance's Twinned Equilibrium endowment. It takes allows you to harm/heal the same group (living/undead) with the same channel attempt, and you can use selective channel to exclude from either. How that applies to Channel Smite is somewhat murky .. BUT:
Benefit: Before you make a melee attack roll, you can choose to spend one use of your channel energy ability as a swift action. If you channel positive energy and you hit an undead creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel positive energy ability. If you channel negative energy and you hit a living creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel negative energy ability. Your target can make a Will save, as normal, to halve this additional damage. If your attack misses, the channel energy ability is still expended with no effect.
With Twinned Equilibrium, you could channel positive AND negative energy with ANY channel attempt. Meaning you could make use of that feat with any creature you hit, regardless of the channel pool. Its less murky than just Versatile Channel, but expect table variation.
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I'm not sure I'd build entirely around Channel Smite. Even if you did multiclass Cleric/Shaman and had a good Cha you'd end up with only about 10 uses per day, which is not a whole lot. And multiclassing would nerf each form of channeling, and leave you with weak casting. Remember that Channel Smite still lets the target save for half and the save is based on class level.
I'd either make a combat cleric with minimal Wis and higher Str and Cha, or human cleric starting with Guided Hand in order to bump up my Wis and Cha both very high without worrying much about strength or dex. If you manage a 16 Cha to start, you get 6 uses of Channel. Extra Channel gives you 8 daily uses.
1 level of Life Shaman might be worth it since you get access to a new spell list for 1st lvel utility or wands, plus a familiar, on top of a few extra uses of weak channeling. But I probably would stick with the single class.
Oracle with VMC Cleric is certainly an option, but the VMC Channel doesn't come online until level 7, which is a while to go without Negative Energy Channel Smite, and it's very weak for quite a while after that. It's also not PFS legal.
The Envoy of Balance thing looks like it technically works, but I'd feel uncomfortable about it and it also doesn't come online until level 7.
Oracle with VMC Cleric is certainly an option, but the VMC Channel doesn't come online until level 7, which is a while to go without Negative Energy Channel Smite, and it's very weak for quite a while after that. It's also not PFS legal.
The Envoy of Balance thing looks like it technically works, but I'd feel uncomfortable about it and it also doesn't come online until level 7.
Yeah, most fun things like that tend to come online a bit later than most people like. For some reason, a lot of games tend to taper off before 10th level. I've only had two games that were put on hold about that level, not counting one shot goblin games were we knew level 3 was an achievement.
The reason I don't mind late blooming characters is that at the lower levels, there are just so many different options available to ensure your character is survivable that specialization is not as important as it is in the higher levels. However, everyone plays differently and that's not a bad thing.