My group was inordinately annoyed by the presence of 5 roles on a starship when there were 4 characters in the group. They are asking that I allow a fifth player. They know I don't modify APs much when I run them because I simply don't have the time. I usually say no to more than 4 because that's what the game and the APs are built for.
But as part of that, they built a character with the 5th player and want opinions on it. Warning... it's weird... it doesn't seem at all optimal at much. I haven't read the Envoy class at all, so I've told them two things so far:
1) Everything you get, you are getting later than a full class build
2) Anything tied to class level is going to be weaker
Criticisms? Improvements? Here is the character...
Human Mercenary Operative
STR 11 (+0) DEX 16 (+3) CON 10 (+0) INT 10 (+0) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 16 (+3)
EAC 14 KAC 15 Fort/Ref/Will +0/+5/+2
Speed 30' BAB +0 HP 10 SP 6 RP 4 Init +4
Skills: Acrobatics +10G, Athletics +2, Bluff +8*, Diplomacy +5*, Disguise +8*, Intimidate +8*, Perception +5*, Piloting +1, Sense Motive +5*, Stealth +10G, Survival +1, Computers +5*, Culture +5*, Engineering +5*
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (small arms), Skill Focus (acrobatics, stealth)
Special: Languages (common), Skilled, Bonus Feat, Theme Knowledge (+1 athletics), Operative's Edge (+1), Specialization (ghost), trick attack (1d4)
Equipment: Second Skin, Azimuth Laser Pistol, Tactical Baton
LEVEL UPS:
2: Envoy 1, Envoy Improvisation (get ‘em), Expertise (1d6, sense motive), Skill Expertise (intimidate)
3: Feat (weapon proficiency [nyfiber net]), Operative 2, Evasion (), Operative’s Exploit (combat trick [amplified glitch])
4: Envoy 2, Envoy Improvisation (dispiriting taunt)
5: Stat Increase (+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha), Feat (extra resolve), Operative 3, Operative’s Edge (+2), Quick Movement (10’), Trick Attack (1d8), Weapon Specialization (basic melee, small arms, sniper)
6: Theme Benefit (grunt), Envoy 3, Expertise Talent (menacing gaze), Weapon Specialization (basic melee, small arms)
7: Feat (antagonize), Operative 4, Debilitating Trick (), Operative’s Exploit (nightvision)
8: Envoy 4, Envoy Improvisation (quick dispiriting taunt)
9: Feat (skill focus [intimidate]), Operative 5, Specialization Exploit (), Trick Attack (3d8)
10: Stat Increase (+1 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 Cha), Envoy 5, Expertise (1d6+1), Skill Expertise (diplomacy)
11: Feat (weapon focus [nyfiber net]), Operative 6, Operative Exploit (hampering shot)
12: Theme Benefit (squad leader), Envoy 6, Envoy Improvisation (improved get ‘em)
13: Feat (great fortitude), Operative 7, Operative’s Edge (+3), Specialization Skill Mastery (), Trick Attack (4d8), Uncanny Agility ()
14: Envoy 7, Expertise Talent (rattling presence)
15: Stat Increase (+1 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 Cha), Feat (sidestep), Operative 8, Triple Attack (), Operative Exploit (interfering shot)
16: Envoy 8, Envoy Improvisation (hurry)
17: Feat (penetrating attack), Operative 9, Quick Movement (20’), Trick Attack (5d8)
18: Theme Benefit (commander), Envoy 9, Expertise (1d6+2), Skill Expertise (bluff)
19: Feat (improved sidestep), Operative 10, Operative Exploit (deactivating shot)
20: Stat Increase (+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis), Envoy 10, Envoy Improvisation (improved hurry)
Expected Ship Role: Captain
Expected Combat Role: Enemy Debuffer, Party Buffer, Secondary damage
Mercenary makes the odd point (in Str) less painful and squad leader is expected to be useful
Why not just an Envoy (what I asked them)? 1) Operative's Debilitating Shot which even without improvements can leave a target flat-footed or off target (more debuffing) 2) Trick Attack allows decent damage output for rounds not occupied by throwing nets, buffing, or intimidating 3) Two mostly free skills (on Envoy levels they do not increase Disguise and Culture in favor of Acrobatics and Stealth 4) Operative Speed bonus 5) Nyfiber Net lacks the "thrown" tag, meaning it's normal ranged and hence Dex based (really? this seems wrong to me) and eventually they can get durable and seeking enhancements
You could have them hire someone just to work on the spaceship. Is this for an actual player? Or the other 4 will control this? The AP works with 4-5 players so you should not need to cripple the character.
1) Operative's Debilitating Shot which even without improvements can leave a target flat-footed or off target (more debuffing)
Actually you need to be a level 4 Operative for the flat-footed to count for the rest of the team. Read Debility Trick on page 94 which the operative gets at 4th level. And requires them to use trick attack which a full action, leaving no other actions available for Get 'Em
Try this combo as a straight Envoy if you want to do that (its starts earlier and gives more bonuses by the end):
1st Get 'Em
2nd Clever Feint
4th Clever Attack
6th Improved Get 'Em
1st level is standard action attack + Get 'Em (move)
2nd level you have the option of Attack + Get 'Em or Clever Feint (standard) + Get 'Em (move)
4th level you get Clever Attack (Standard action attack plus flat footed) and move action Get 'Em (move)
6th level you get Clever Attack and Improved Get 'Em (you can still use it as a move or as the standard plus attack).
2) Trick attack at half level is going to fall far behind in damage. Like, worse than simple Longarm damage bad. Also, you're hitting yourself with BAB penalities twice. Also they don't get damage specialization until 5th level.
Have them compare the damage of this character at 6th (which *still* doesn't make the target flat footed for anyone else), and a pure Envoy that took Longarm proficiency and specialization at 1st and 3rd.
The operative trick attacking provides no bonus and does 2d6 + 1d8 + 3 (assuming a 7th level weapon). Lets assuming 60% odds of hitting, including the flat footed, for an average 0.6 * 14.5 = 8.7.
The Envoy at 6th is providing +2 to hit to the entire team on the target, making the target flat footed for the entire team, and then dealing 2d8+6 damage. You're up +2 to hit compared to the operative, so 70% chance to hit for 0.7*15 = 10.5.
And that is providing an extra 4 to hit for the entire team.
3) Skills at half ranks are significantly less useful given the game's scaling. If you really need more than 9 skills, I'd bump Int and drop Cha or Dex (or both) to 14. Also you are delaying both Operative's Edge and Envoy's Expertise, making your best skills weaker.
Also, I thought they already had a stealth specialist?
4) If 10 feet speed on a range striker matters, grab the fleet feat at 5th. Its just as good as the speed bonus, you get it at the same level, and with a 50/50 build, you don't get the second 20' until level 18. At that level, it just does not matter. Alternatively, grab Heavy Armor proficiency at 5th and enjoy the extra AC at the cost of lower speed, which an Operative wouldn't do. There is something to be said for being at capped AC.
5) That is false. From the [ url=http://paizo.com/starfinder/faq]Starfinder FAQ[/url]:
"The nyfiber net has the entangle and thrown weapon special properties. It does no damage, but can entangle a foe." It is in fact thrown.
This is for an actual fifth player, and they are not intentionally crippling anything. They are trying to get two sets of abilities (eventually) from two classes. Also, the module itself says it is built for 4 characters, not 5. I know adding a fifth isn't supposed to trigger much re-working in PF, but our experience with that in two different APs proved otherwise.
Excellent stuff here, their responses...
1) Actually you need to be level 4 Operative for the flat-footed to count for the rest of the team.
They are aware of this. They are not so concerned about doing it sooner via a full Envoy. Get 'Em doesn't require refreshing, so they are trying to create other things that the character can do besides just damage.
2) Trick attack at half level is going to fall far behind in damage.
Yep, this was one of the things I noticed going back over it with the equipment table. I'm not sure why they feel that's acceptable.
3) Skills at half ranks are significantly less useful given the game's scaling.
The only skills at half rank are Disguise and Culture. Two other characters will have maxed Culture and they don't expect Disguise to actually be useful.
4) If 10 feet speed on a range striker matters, grab the fleet feat at 5th. Its just as good as the speed bonus, you get it at the same level, and with a 50/50 build, you don't get the second 20' until level 18.
They don't expect to see the second boost during the AP. It was just an "extra" from Operative, not something they felt they had to have for the character. They would probably not burn a feat for it on an Envoy.
5) That is false.
Yep, that right there may kill the idea. They are now going to see about creating something with Str/Cha that will be in melee and make better use of the net. They also didn't notice the short range on the net
I keep telling them that using nets won't work as well as it did in PF because the ACs are different and it'll be harder to get them to land, but they seem undeterred. I doubt they will have all the feats necessary to make a character survive in melee (or get a decent weapon) and still do all the buffing/debuffing/intimidating, but we'll see.
I'd just go Str/Chr melee Envoy. That sounds both fun and hilarious.
That's their tack now... with either a Lashunta or a Vesk and picking up Heavy Armor and Improved Unarmed Strike. Does IUS work with the Vesk Natural Weapons?
Out of curiosity, when you run 5 players, do you award the same XP per person as 4 players (per the XP table per CR table in the Gamemastering section) or actually divide the total XP by 5? In the later case, they should generally be a level behind, which should make the AP about the right difficulty, assuming an optimized team.
They are aware of this. They are not so concerned about doing it sooner via a full Envoy. Get 'Em doesn't require refreshing, so they are trying to create other things that the character can do besides just damage.
Get 'Em does require refreshing. You need to use it every round or the bonus goes away.
From Get 'Em: "Until the start of your next turn, you and your allies gain a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls made against that enemy."
Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by refreshing?
They are now going to see about creating something with Str/Cha that will be in melee and make better use of the net.
I generally like a ranged Envoy better than melee, as it is easier to stand still and provide a bunch of buffs, however it's not bad by any means, and also can provide a flanking buddy to a Solarian while dealing even more damage.
I'd still probably ditch the net and just go melee with a reach weapon, using reactions for additional attacks. Although going Improved Maneuver for Disarm might be cool. An envoy with a Taclash could do some very interesting things in terms of control/debuff.
I would do something like:
Human: 14 Str/ 14 Dex / 14 Cha.
Feats:
1st: Adv Melee Proficiency, Weapon Focus: Adv Melee
3rd: Versatile Specialization
5th: Heavy Armor
7th: Improved Maneuver: Disarm
9th: Coordinated Shot
11th: Enhanced ResistancesUnfriendly Fire (Edit: On second thought this is much more entertaining than Enhanced Resistances).
Go with 2 handed Unwieldy melee weapons from level 1 (like a
You could swap Weapon Focus and Improved Maneuver and start with a Taclash (which gives +2 to disarm) from 1st level.
Alternatively, start with 1 level of Soldier (Blitz), which provides Heavy Armor, Adv Melee Prof, 10 feet movement and pseudo Improved Initiative. Also Heavy Weapons become an options for AoE fun as well.
1st: Weapon Focus and Improved Disarm
3rd: Coordinated Shot (Solarian could also take this, its an untyped bonus)
5th: Versatile Specialization (covers all the Soldier weapons)
7th: Unfriendly Fire
9th: Enhanced Resistance?
11th: Extra resolve?
At 11th level late game, a move action Get 'Em, plus Weapon focus, plus a 22 in Str, going for a disarm with Tachlash is +8 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 6 = +24. Not bad against say a 27 KAC + 8 = 35 manuever defense Necrovite (CR 13). 50/50 odds of disarming them. Flanking with a Solarian bumps it up to 60% chance of success. Not bad odds at all for completely removing the BBG's ability to melee. Tag team with the Solarian to pick up the weapon.
Anyways, those are just a couple options.
I've tried the XP both ways. Giving them the same as a 4 person group made things super easy. Giving them the XP/5 made it just easy. And neither AP made it to the end anyway.
As far as Get 'Em... I really need to stop blindly trusting what my players tell me before posting. :( Maybe they meant something else... no idea. <shrug>
No disarming... they hate maneuvers and will never use them. If I let them apply IUS to the Vesk natural weapons, they'll use that for melee I guess. Otherwise, they'll probably use Lashunta and still get IUS. Either way, not human and no bonus feat, so their feat progression is going to be weird/tight early on. They seem set on the net, and that's another pair of proficiency and focus feats. I need to look up the item breaking rules to see if the net will be easy to break after a few levels. That may convince them to drop it, even with a durable enhancement.
Funnily enough, the Solarian player is discouraging the rest of them from dipping Soldier to get any of that. He's arguing they can wait for melee effectiveness (focus feats), but the want the buffing/debuffing online quickly, net proficiency, antagonize and skill focus (intimidate) are all at the front of the queue.
I've tried the XP both ways. Giving them the same as a 4 person group made things super easy. Giving them the XP/5 made it just easy. And neither AP made it to the end anyway.
Fair enough. I've sadly got no further suggestions on that front.
As far as Get 'Em... I really need to stop blindly trusting what my players tell me before posting. :( Maybe they meant something else... no idea. <shrug>
Well, look on the bright side. By coming to the forums you now know without having to look it up. :)
Anyways, I don't have an official ruling on the IUS. My gut reaction is that you can use the IUS to increase the damage, since the Vesk race says:
"They can deal 1d3 lethal damage with unarmed strikes and the attack doesn’t count as archaic."
Lastly, the base net should be relatively easy to break mid to late game. Depending on whether you rule a net as "sturdy equipment" or not, its either 6 or 7 hardness, and either 6 or 18 hit points (see page 409), so 25 damage in the worst case to break in one hit. Full attacks are likely to hit it, so most monsters by CR 6 or 7 or so should be able to break it in a round. There is a fusion to raise the item's durability by 5 levels.
However, I will point out something.
Tactical Crossbolter (475) plus an Entangling Fusion (360) only cost 835 credits each. Add in the Called Fusion for a total of 1,195. Spread 8 of those throughout your team, and roughly twice every combat (assuming a 4 encounter work day) you can entangle with a 70 foot range increment, while using Dexterity to hit. Since its only a swift to call it, you can still do the Standard + Move action Envoy buffs. Think of them as 1/day magic nets. If the 2 bulk is a bit much per, spend 10 more credits for the Tactical Dart Rifle, only 1 bulk each. By the mid levels (6 and up) this should be a relatively cheap option for the team.
It also does let you do the ultimate buff/debuff combo in a single round of an Entangle, a Clever Feint (flat footed) and Get 'Em at 70 feet as Envoy for -6 to AC in a single round (say at the beginning of combat).