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I'm looking into making a Tinkerer Alchemist for PFS and I'm trying to nail down some of the rules gray areas. I'd love some help finding RAW, PFS-legal answers to these things.
1) If the construct familiar has the mauler archetype, when it grows to medium will it gain "bonus HP" as per the construct traits?
2) Based on this FAQ, am I correct in assuming that in PFS a Tinkerer can pay for construct upgrades via these rules once the familiar upgrades at level 6?
3) If a Tinkerer takes the Tumor Familiar discovery, will the clockwork familiar gain the ability to attach to his body for fast healing?
4) Once the familiar upgrades to a Clockwork Familiar and no longer has a slam attack, does the tinkering option that increases slam damage add a slam attack or does it do nothing?
5) The Clockwork Bond ability has a line that says, "Unlike most familiars, a clockwork spy does not grant special abilities to its master." Does this only mean that it doesn't grant a usual familiar skill bonus, or does it extend to things like the bonus Alertness feat and other abilities from the normal familiar rules?
Thanks for any help on this.
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Be careful. At level 6 your familiar will become an Improved Familiar. You can't combine improved familiars with the Mauler archetype because they both replace the "speak with animals of its own kind" property.
Not quite. At 6th level the familiar is upgraded to that familiar, but you never get the Improved Familiar feat or its effects, similarly to how the Magical Child's familiar upgrades. The only reference to Improved Familiar in the upgrade text is that you gain the familiar at no cost as though you had the feat, meaning you don't need to pay 12000-something GP for it.
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Playing a tinkerer alchemist that just reached level 6, the text indeed claims that it gains the statistics of a clockwork familiar as if getting the feat. The language is the same as the magical child vigilante with just 2 differences.
1. The magical child will not be able to use an improved familiar mauler anymore because of ultimate wilderness having a rule change that states : if a familiar has the ability to change shape, all of those forms must be able to qualify for it's archetype or abilities.
2. The tinkerer familiar does not have a standard progression, yes it gains the stats of a clockwork familar at level 6, but at level 7 it gains the ability to speak with constructs of it's kind, because it being a construct would not be able to speak to animals of it's kind because there are none.
Therefore I stand by the ruling that the tinkerer familiar can use the mauler archetype by trading out the ability to speak to constructs of it's kind.
Now to answser your other questions.
1. No, the hitpoints of a familiar are always equal to half those of the master, mauler's endurance and using temporary hitpoint sources such as false life.
2. No, craft construct is not legal in organized play with 1 exception.
A homonculus familiar may be upgraded with additional hitdice but due to the hitpoint rule this is rather pointless and expensive. The specific upgrades from the alchemy manual are however free to use for homonculi only.
3. Yes, Raw it is perfectly fine, I do not use this rule myself but I cannot stop you from utilizing it yourself.
4. Sad to inform you that about half the upgrades in the initial tinkering list become obsolete once it upgrades to a clockwork familiar, including the slam upgrade.
and lastly.
5. you still get the benefits of alertness and speak with master if you did not trade it away. you do not gain the usual +2 reflex or +3hp a familiar normally grants you.
Apologies for the wall of text, I hope that your questions have been anwsered.
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Richter is correct on most things, there are just two little things.
...Stuff...
2. The tinkerer familiar does not have a standard progression, yes it gains the stats of a clockwork familar at level 6, but at level 7 it gains the ability to speak with constructs of it's kind, because it being a construct would not be able to speak to animals of it's kind because there are none.Therefore I stand by the ruling that the tinkerer familiar can use the mauler archetype by trading out the ability to speak to constructs of it's kind.
...Stuff...
The problem with this interpretation is that the familiar itself (which is an improved familiar at that point) does not gain the "speak with animals of his kind" class feature, it gains the ability to communicate with clockwork beings because the Tinkerer Archetype trades out the Mutagen class feature. You cannot trade out an ability which is gained due to an alteration made by an archetype, to take another archetype on the familiar. This is besides the fact that you can't trade out an ability just because it is similar to the original ability (Otherwise Fighters with the Archer archetype would still be eligible for Advanced Weapon Training, but they are not due to this Faq)
So once the Tinkerer reaches lvl 6, its familiar is no longer eligible for the Mauler archetype. If you want to keep it, the only way will be to multiclass and no longer take levels in Alchemist al together after level 5 (to prevent the "upgrade" towards an Improved Familiar).
3. Yes, Raw it is perfectly fine, I do not use this rule myself but I cannot stop you from utilizing it yourself.
This other one isn't wrong, there is just an unfortunate interaction later on as you level up... This Faq unfortunately states halfway that Tumor Familiars cannot be Improved Familiars. This means that when the Tinkerer reaches lvl 6, the Tumor Familiar Discovery and the Clockwork Familiar are no longer compatible, and one of them has to give way to the other.
Other than these two things, Richter is spot on with his answers.
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While I see the viewpoint you are presenting, I do not agree that the familiar loses it's mauler qualification.
All the abilities it gains are in addition to it's normal abilites to function as a standard familiar, because it gains 'deliver infusion' does not mean it loses deliver touch for example.
This allows it to stack with other archetypes of the familiar as no features are replaced.
The clockwork spy is not even available as a familiar normally.
And the change shape faq is not applicable to the tinkerer familiar because it permanently gains the statistics of a clockwork familiar while still keeping it's progression as noted by the clockwork bond ability.
If we follow the line of logic you are suggesting, then the tinkerer familiar would not be able to take ANY archetype or the player would have to spend an extraordinairy amount of resources to use it, wich contradicts the point of the entire archetype : a customizable construct companion.
Considering opinions are differing about this, I will mark this for Faq.
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While I see the viewpoint you are presenting, I do not agree that the familiar loses it's mauler qualification.
All the abilities it gains are in addition to it's normal abilites to function as a standard familiar, because it gains 'deliver infusion' does not mean it loses deliver touch for example.
This allows it to stack with other archetypes of the familiar as no features are replaced.The clockwork spy is not even available as a familiar normally.
And the change shape faq is not applicable to the tinkerer familiar because it permanently gains the statistics of a clockwork familiar while still keeping it's progression as noted by the clockwork bond ability.
If we follow the line of logic you are suggesting, then the tinkerer familiar would not be able to take ANY archetype or the player would have to spend an extraordinairy amount of resources to use it, wich contradicts the point of the entire archetype : a customizable construct companion.
Considering opinions are differing about this, I will mark this for Faq.
Some spoilers so that other people also know what is being talked about.
A tinkerer’s familiar can take any shape the tinkerer wishes, but its statistics and abilities are identical to a clockwork spy (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 58) with the normal adjustments and abilities for a familiar applied, and it is a construct with the clockwork subtype. At 3rd level, if the tinkerer has the infusionAPG discovery, a clockwork spy familiar can deliver the tinkerer’s extracts with a range of touch for her. At 7th level, a clockwork spy can communicate with constructs with the clockwork subtype. Unlike most familiars, a clockwork spy does not grant special abilities to its master.
With 1 minute of work and a successful DC 15 Heal check, a tinkerer can restore 1d4 hit points to her clockwork spy familiar. At 4th level, a tinkerer can restore 1d6 hit points to her familiar in this same way. This amount increases to an additional 1d6 hit points every 4 levels thereafter (2d6 at 8th level, 3d6 at 12th level, 4d6 at 16th level, and 5d6 at 20th level).
This ability replaces mutagen. A tinkerer cannot choose the cognatogenUM or mutagenUM discoveries.
This ability replaces swift poisoning.
Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).
You can find the full list of available Improved Familiars here.
Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).
Alright, for some reason you assume that I thought that the clockwork familiar lost Deliver Touch Spell when it gained the ability to deliver your infusions. I do not believe that, I know it are extra abilities gained though the Tinkerer archetype on top of its normal abilities as a familiar. So a level 3 Tinkerer has an familiar both Deliver Touch Spells class feature and can deliver your Infusions due to the Tinkerer's Clockwork Bond class feature.\
The problem is that it that at lvl 6 the familiar turns into a Improved Familiar, as if the Tinkerer had the Improved Familiar feat. That feat states that the familiar does no longer gain the "speak with animals of his kind" class feature. The Tinkerer gains both the positive and the negative of this feat, so its familiar is no longer eligible for the archetype. Through the Clockwork Bond class feature of the TINKERER, the familiar gains the ability to speak with clockwork constructs at lvl 7. This however, does not impart it with a class feature that it needs to become an Mauler, it simply gives him an ability to speak with construct through the class feature of the alchemist himself. It can still take the Sage of Emissary archetypes, with the last no longer capable of delivering your spells, but still capable of delivering your infusions (because Clockwork Bond says so).
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The problem is that it that at lvl 6 the familiar turns into a Improved Familiar, as if the Tinkerer had the Improved Familiar feat.
This is where the misunderstanding seems to be. It doesn't actually say you gain the feat, not does it say you're treated as having the feat. As I mentioned previously, the only reference to the feat I see there is saying that you gain the familiar at no cost, as though you were gaining it from the feat. This is in reference to the Clockwork Familiar entry itself, which says you can gain it free from Improved Familiar, OR you can construct one with the Craft Construct feat and 14500gp. As losing the ability to speak with kind is an effect of the feat, and a tinkerer neither has nor is treated as having the feat, I see nothing to cause it to lose the ability.
Either way, whether or not it can be a mauler is unrelated to the questions I was actually looking to have answered.
1. No, the hitpoints of a familiar are always equal to half those of the master, mauler's endurance and using temporary hitpoint sources such as false life.
Can you quote any specific rules on this? The familiar rules set the base HP at half of yours, but the bonus HP comes from construct traits. Which one is more specific?
2. No, craft construct is not legal in organized play with 1 exception.
A homonculus familiar may be upgraded with additional hitdice but due to the hitpoint rule this is rather pointless and expensive. The specific upgrades from the alchemy manual are however free to use for homonculi only.
Except that the FAQ I linked to (this one), which is specifically an Organized Play FAQ entry, explicitly lists the clockwork familiar and says, "You need only pay the price of any augmentations that you add to your construct familiar, such as additional Hit Dice for your homunculus." Note that homonculus hit dice is listed as a single example, hence the "such as", rather than as an only option. That FAQ seems to make it pretty clear that you can pay for upgrades to any construct familiar you would acquire, according to some construct upgrading rules. I was less asking whether or not it could be done, and more confirming that those were the correct upgrade rules, and which ones could actually be used.
4. Sad to inform you that about half the upgrades in the initial tinkering list become obsolete once it upgrades to a clockwork familiar, including the slam upgrade.
That's pretty much what I expect, but once again, can you quote any rules on this? It seems pretty obviously that things like the nat armor bonus and the DR would stop working, because the Clockwork Familiar already has those things (or better), and they wouldn't stack. My only concern is the slam option.
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@Wayne Bradbury
No, the slam option does not give the clockwork familiar a slam attack.
@Mr.Bonkers
The problem I have with this is that, you do not gain the Improved familiar feat, you tinker with your familiar enough have it gain the form of a clockwork familiar, the wording of 'as if he had taken the improved familliar feat' is there to circumvent the cost of gaining a clockwork familiar. If it said, the tinkerer gains improved familiar as a bonus feat, I would have laid down arms and surrendered, but it is this wording that forms the basis for my argument.
And on a more personal note, I am loathe to believe that an archetype would be designed like this, thankfully the case of magical child/chosen one among others have been dealt with in a clear and concise way, but the tinkerer has not yet had that treatment, therefore while I see your argument I cannot agree with it until that time arrives.
And as a side note, apologies for assuming, it was late and I did not read the sentence correctly.
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I'm looking into making a Tinkerer Alchemist for PFS and I'm trying to nail down some of the rules gray areas. I'd love some help finding RAW, PFS-legal answers to these things.
Thanks for any help on this.
1) It does not gain additional hit points.
2) The linked rules are from Ultimate Magic and are not legal for play. You may be thinking of the rules for upgrading homunculus familiars (from the Pathfinder Bestiary), which appear in Pathfinder Player Companion: Alchemy Manual.3) The tumor familiar would be a separate familiar. With two familiars, this FAQ would then come into play.
4) That option does nothing after the upgrade. Since it only takes an hour to swap to a different one, this shouldn't pose an issue in play.
5) The clockwork spy gains the following abilities at the usual levels for a familiar: improved evasion, empathic link, speak with master, and spell resistance. The other abilities from the normal familiar rules do not apply.
Tinkerer-specific clarifications will appear in the next update of Campaign Clarifications.
