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I have the possibility of attending a Kingmaker game in the future (probably months away), and I'm leaning towards a Goliath Druid. I really like the idea of wild shaping into a Giant.
Anyways, the game will be set in Varisia instead of the Stolen Lands. It will be a three person party, with another player playing a Cleric. Plus, there will be a healing houserule (not sure of the specifics yet). Don't know about the third player. Possibly a Ranger.
Only issue is it's a 15 Point Buy. I like the Samsaran as a race because of the whole Reincarnation thing (and Druids have that as a spell). Plus, I like the idea of using Mystic Past Life to poach a few spells off of the Inquisitor list (Divine Favor, Heroism, and Divine Power spring to mind).
Racial penalty to CON hurts though.
This is what I have so far:
STR: 15
DEX: 14
CON- 12
INT+ 12
WIS+ 14
CHA: 7
Probably taking Toughness as my first level feat. All favoured class bonuses will be to HP. All level increases to STR. Because it's a three person party, will be going for the animal companion.
Going to eventually grab Heavy Armor Proficiency and Power Attack.
Don't know what animal companion to get though. I'm expecting my Druid and AC to be secondary melee (or maybe primary melee depending on the third player).
Are my stats ok for a 15 point buy? Or should that be to low for a melee focused Samsaran Druid? What other feats look good?
Expected Feats:
1) Toughness
3) Heavy Armor Proficiency
5) Power Attack
7) ??? (Thinking Quick Draw for use with a Quickdraw Shield)
9) Quicken Spell
11) Divine Interference
13+) ???
Any help is appreciated. I haven't played a Druid since 3.5 (although have done plenty of melee types and clerics/oracles in Pathfinder).
EDIT: I forgot to add: this will be a heavily modified Kingmaker game. It will have less of a focus on the kingdom building side of things. We will be expected to "put down roots". Also, background skills are being used, because it seems like Craft and Profession type skills will be of use as part of building a settlement.
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Cool! My home group's next campaign is probably going to be Kingmaker. I hope it starts off well before the computer game comes out. :)
Anyway, looking at your stats, you seem to want to play this more for the huge size, than for the druid. I would advice first and foremost to look into other big options, before committing to a class you're not truly interested in. Of course, the Goliath is the only one that can take giant form for hours on end, but so can any character who casts possession and finds a giant.
A Samsaran, particularly, can cast possession as a 3rd level spell (from the medium spell list), which would enable a psychic to cast it at 6, a mindblade magus to cast it at 7, and an ID rager bloodrager to cast it at 10.
Anyway, considering your ability scores, since you are a druid, I'd definitely up wisdom a little. I'd say play a higher age category. The second age category already helps along nicely, enabling a Samsaran with 15pt point buy to rock:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 8
While certainly less physical than your own proposition, you'll have your shapechange for exactly that.
Also, get reincarnated. You'll get a nice new young body, but all of your old thoughts. By reasoning, that would make it logical to lose the physical penalties, but keep the mental bonuses, since those stem from worldly experience. As a side, you'll lose that nasty minus to con a samsaran gives you, without losing the int and wis pluses. You could take this to extremes by playing venerable, and make it your first mission to obtain a scroll of reincarnate (and a scroll of contingent scroll, if you're not the trusting type).
You're a martial, and you want action economy. Casting any buff will still take you a standard action. To rectify that, you could use potions with the accelerated drinker trait as a move action. Bring the potion to hand as a swift action by using heward's handy haversack. But... Potions are expensive! Enter herbalism. A nice druid option you can take in place of your nature bond. It enables you to create free potions daily, even as quickly as within a minute, after a while! The only downside is the spells have to be actually on the druid spell list, so no divine favour potions.
Feats:
The only heavy armor you're going to be able to wear is made from dragonskin. And I doubt, you'll have that at level 3.
Since you're going to be awfully large, you might consider the vital strike chain. Buy potions of lead blades for 50gp apiece, go large, and go to town. All you need now are power attack, furious focus, and vital strike for that one big BAM per round. This also means you get to use your move action for your potions!
Also not a bad suggestion is to take 1 level of ranger and sport the shapeshifting hunter feat, to have full on favored enemy class feature to go with your druid. Although you might then want to add instant enemy to your class list with samsaran mystic past life, choosing ranger instead of inquisitor...
Good luck!!
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Oh wait... Just realised Lead Blades is personal, and so cannot be made into a potion. To cast it, you would have to loan it from the ranger spell list. But, since you're a Samsaran, that's not a problem.
If you're ever looking for another dip, do consider the battle host occultist with transmutation. It'll enable you to up your speed by 30` as a swift action, add bane (or whatever) to your weapon as a standard action, and add a spell, like lead blades (or whatever). Also, a free floating +2 enhancement to a physical score won't hurt. And you'll have your heavy armor proficiency. All that sucks is the +0 BAB, unless you're using fractional BAB.
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Cool! My home group's next campaign is probably going to be Kingmaker. I hope it starts off well before the computer game comes out. :)
Anyway, looking at your stats, you seem to want to play this more for the huge size, than for the druid. I would advice first and foremost to look into other big options, before committing to a class you're not truly interested in. Of course, the Goliath is the only one that can take giant form for hours on end, but so can any character who casts possession and finds a giant.
A Samsaran, particularly, can cast possession as a 3rd level spell (from the medium spell list), which would enable a psychic to cast it at 6, a mindblade magus to cast it at 7, and an ID rager bloodrager to cast it at 10.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm pretty set on going Goliath Druid though. There's no guarantee I'll be able to even find a Giant to possess if I use that idea. And I think I might just annoy the GM if I go that route. (Not to mention I'd just feel kind of dirty doing anything cheesy in this game; a 15 point buy was probably chosen to keep things more normal, but that's a guess on my part).
Anyway, considering your ability scores, since you are a druid, I'd definitely up wisdom a little. I'd say play a higher age category. The second age category already helps along nicely, enabling a Samsaran with 15pt point buy to rock:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 8
While certainly less physical than your own proposition, you'll have your shapechange for exactly that.
Hmm, I didn't think of going with an older age category. Now, 10 CON hurts worse than 12 CON for a melee Druid though. Which leads to the next point.
Also, get reincarnated. You'll get a nice new young body, but all of your old thoughts. By reasoning, that would make it logical to lose the physical penalties, but keep the mental bonuses, since those stem from worldly experience. As a side, you'll lose that nasty minus to con a samsaran gives you, without losing the int and wis pluses. You could take this to extremes by playing venerable, and make it your first mission to obtain a scroll of reincarnate (and a scroll of contingent scroll, if you're not the trusting type).
Yeah, this is not going to fly in this game I think. Basically, if something is allowed by RAW, but it seems a little too extreme on the cheesy side, then it's not allowed. I've GM'd for this group, and I've done that too. I'm more likely to get the CRB bashed over my head if I tried this, lol.
Thanks for the idea though.
You're a martial, and you want action economy. Casting any buff will still take you a standard action. To rectify that, you could use potions with the accelerated drinker trait as a move action. Bring the potion to hand as a swift action by using heward's handy haversack. But... Potions are expensive! Enter herbalism. A nice druid option you can take in place of your nature bond. It enables you to create free potions daily, even as quickly as within a minute, after a while! The only downside is the spells have to be actually on the druid spell list, so no divine favour potions.
I'm pretty sure the Handy Haversack still takes a move action, doesn't it? Even if it was a swift, you need to start your turn with a potion in hand in order to drink it as a move action IIRC. Which means you can draw it, hold it in hand, and wait until next turn to drink it as a move action:
You know how to drink a potion efficiently, such as by not using your hands, tossing it in the air and catching it in your mouth, or opening it with your teeth. You may drink a potion as a move action instead of a standard as long as you start your turn with the potion in your hand.
Common misconception about that trait.
Lead Blades is interesting, as well as poaching Instant Enemy and using Shapeshifter Hunter. I thought about that. But I think it puts attack/damage bonus on par with Fate's Favored and Divine Favor/Power, and I don't have to multiclass. And Mystic Past Life only allows from one spellcasting class IIRC. But that's just my opinion.
I'm not opposed to multiclassing, but I figured it'd would make my Wild Shape and Animal Companion weaker. Sure, I could grab Shaping Focus/Shapeshifting Hunter and Boon Companion, along with Magical Knack as a trait to keep up caster level. But I'm spending two feats and a trait for that, so it really depends on what I'm getting back out of it.
Armor will either be Dragonhide Full Plate or Stone Plate (utilizing Longstrider/Greater Longstrider). Stone Plate may be affordable by 3rd, which is why I penciled in Heavy Armor Proficiency then. Of course I can juggle around feats depending on circumstances.
I'm going to need to think a bit on some of these suggestions and see if any of them makes sense to me.
Divine Favor/Power is alone enough to make a Druid deadly, though a level of Barbarian (Armored Hulk if you want free heavy armor) can add a lot of power as well. One level of Barbarian and one Extra Rage is already a decent rage round supply.
Personally, if I was going to create a Samsaran Druid, I'd probably make a Wolf Domain Nature Fang. Samsarans turning into giants seems odd to me; I can see a Samsaran Druid 'wolf warrior', maybe dual-wielding a scimitar and light spiked shield while trip-rolling enemies with the awesome Aspect of the Wolf spell. Samsaran also goes well thematically with a level of Medium, and Champion Medium is awesome for a TWF character.
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Divine Favor/Power is alone enough to make a Druid deadly, though a level of Barbarian (Armored Hulk if you want free heavy armor) can add a lot of power as well. One level of Barbarian and one Extra Rage is already a decent rage round supply.
Thanks for the response BadBird. Yeah, I figured Divine Favor/Power would make for quite a power boost on a Druid. Armored Hulk Barbarian sounds interesting. Although I couldn't cast spells once I start raging (or be fatigued if I ever do). Might be ok. Will need to consider that.
Personally, if I was going to create a Samsaran Druid, I'd probably make a Wolf Domain Nature Fang. Samsarans turning into giants seems odd to me; I can see a Samsaran Druid 'wolf warrior', maybe dual-wielding a scimitar and light spiked shield while trip-rolling enemies with the awesome Aspect of the Wolf spell. Samsaran also goes well thematically with a level of Medium, and Champion Medium is awesome for a TWF character.
Samsaran turning into Giants can certainly seem odd. From an RP perspective, I was considering that in his past life he would have lived in Zi Ha, and had interaction with the nearby Taiga Giants (got this part from the Zi Ha entry in Dragon Empires Primer).
Of course, can you even do a TWF Druid on a 15 point buy? EDIT: Never mind. Missed the Nature Fang part. EDIT 2: Will need to read up on Medium. I'm not familiar on all of the psychic classes.
I'm not really married to Samsaran as a race. Goliath Druid certainly though.
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Quickened Thunderstomp with a metamagic trait to make it level 4 is pretty cool, especially if you grab Dirty Fighting (no INT requirement) and Greater Trip. A good old floor-clubbing is very appropriate for a giant. Move up, swift knockdown, trip AoO, standard attack is brutal with high strength and a two-hander.
As a side-note, Shaping Focus makes it possible to multiclass up to 4 levels and not lose any Wild Shape power. So if spellcasting is secondary to your plans, that's one road to take.
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Quickened Thunderstomp with a metamagic trait to make it level 4 is pretty cool, especially if you grab Dirty Fighting (no INT requirement) and Greater Trip. A good old floor-clubbing is very appropriate for a giant. Move up, swift knockdown, trip AoO, standard attack is brutal with high strength and a two-hander.
As a side-note, Shaping Focus makes it possible to multiclass up to 4 levels and not lose any Wild Shape power. So if spellcasting is secondary to your plans, that's one road to take.
Ok, that sounds like a cool tactic. And very Giant-y. What race would work best for something like that (assuming not Samsaran)? And I'm open to multiclassing, taking Shaping Focus (and maybe Boon Companion if necessary). What would have the best synergism? Barbarian springs to mind, and again very Giant-y.
Yeah, I know you'll have to start the round with the potion in hand. That does preclude you from making an AOO with your 2h weapon, but not much else.
I did misremember handy haversack, though. Oh well :)
Alright. Just wanted to point that out for anyone who may not know.
And no worries. My memory is swiss cheese sometimes. I appreciate the feedback. :)
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If you're willing to multiclass 4 levels, there are a lot of cool options.
4 levels weapon master and gloves of dueling open up 2 (3 with retraining) advanced weapon training options. And weapon specialization as a side note.
4 levels barbarian or unchained barbarian add a lot of options.
Superstitious and witch hunter,
All those rage powers to trample people,
A raging companion.
3 levels of hunter would do wonders for your companion. Also in utility, especially if you take planar focus
4 levels of cavalier with the order of the flame will grant you very high damage bonuses in big battles
A few levels of haunt collector occultist would grant you very nice things, although a psychodermist is probably more fitting.
Samsaran has a huge, huge advantage through spellgrabs because of Divine Favor and Heroism. Just massive. With a 15 point buy, Dual Talent Human can help a whole lot.
Quickened Thunderstomp means you would probably want a maximum of 1 level of multiclassing, at least until high level, because you need level 4 (or higher) spell slots to use it. Feats are also very tight when you want Greater Trip and Quicken. You can cast while raging if you dip a level of Bloodrager and take Mad Magic, but you need at least two feats to do it. So if you really like the idea of swift Thunderstomp, I'd probably look at starting with one level of Weapon Master and maybe taking a couple more at much higher levels for the Gloves of Dueling bonus.
For a pure combat Goliath multiclass, you could use Weapon Master 4 for the bonus feats, building up to Felling Smash and Greater Trip - also a way to swift-trip, though it doesn't work on a full attack. Worshipping Gorum can grab an interesting Vital Strike Felling Smash trick too, which would hurt bad with a huge greatsword.
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If you're willing to multiclass 4 levels, there are a lot of cool options.
4 levels weapon master and gloves of dueling open up 2 (3 with retraining) advanced weapon training options. And weapon specialization as a side note.
4 levels barbarian or unchained barbarian add a lot of options.
Superstitious and witch hunter,
All those rage powers to trample people,
A raging companion.3 levels of hunter would do wonders for your companion. Also in utility, especially if you take planar focus
4 levels of cavalier with the order of the flame will grant you very high damage bonuses in big battles
A few levels of haunt collector occultist would grant you very nice things, although a psychodermist is probably more fitting.
Oh, I'm willing to multiclass. Provided it gives something worthwhile.
Right now, I'm pondering dropping Samsaran as a race, and go with 1 level of Steelblood Bloodrager. Maybe Human? Take Extra Rage and Mad Magic as feats, and grabbing a bloodline familiar (Compsognathus seems especially appropriate). Maybe even make it the Protector archetype to take care of the penalty to AC. Maybe even Shaping Focus and Boon Companion.
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Samsaran has a huge, huge advantage through spellgrabs because of Divine Favor and Heroism. Just massive. With a 15 point buy, Dual Talent Human can help a whole lot.
Quickened Thunderstomp means you would probably want a maximum of 1 level of multiclassing, at least until high level, because you need level 4 (or higher) spell slots to use it. Feats are also very tight when you want Greater Trip and Quicken. You can cast while raging if you dip a level of Bloodrager and take Mad Magic, but you need at least two feats to do it. So if you really like the idea of swift Thunderstomp, I'd probably look at starting with one level of Weapon Master and maybe taking a couple more at much higher levels for the Gloves of Dueling bonus.
For a pure combat Goliath multiclass, you could use Weapon Master 4 for the bonus feats, building up to Felling Smash and Greater Trip - also a way to swift-trip, though it doesn't work on a full attack. Worshipping Gorum can grab an interesting Vital Strike Felling Smash trick too, which would hurt bad with a huge greatsword.
With a 3 person party, if I do multiclass, it would probably be for a max of 1 level. I think I'll need access to spells. There will also be a cleric in the party, but I'd rather he not pull heavy duty on spellcasting.
While I like the Thunderstomp idea, I think it will require too many feats if I don't multiclass extensively.
So, instead of Samsaran, I'm leaning towards a Human Steelblood Bloodrager 1 / Goliath Druid X build. I'd love to go with Samsaran, but I think I may need the bonus feat more. (Plus, Rage + Divine Power + Giant Form might be too powerful for the rest of the party; I don't want to eclipse them).
Giant McSmashyFace:
STR+ 16
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA: 7
Feats: Extra Rage, Mad Magic
Character Traits: Magical Knack (Druid), ?
Feat Progression:
3) Power Attack
5) Shaping Focus
7) Boon Companion (Perfectly timed for when my pet would go large)
9) Quicken Spell (Can't use it yet, unless I take Wayang Spellhunter: Enlarge Person as my other trait? Would allow for a huge sized pet quickly)
11) Divine Interference
13) Quick Wild Shape
15) ???
17) ???
19) ???
I'll have 12 rounds of bloodrage (will that be enough?). Grab a Furious two-handed weapon. Maybe with Impact also, which means I can start taking Vital Strike/Improved Vital Strike at higher levels?
I know, it's different compared to where I started. Thoughts?
Divine Favor and Goliath is already hugely strong, so a Thunderstomp Druid Samsaran could go: 15STR, 12DEX, 14\12CON, 8/10INT, 14/16WIS, 8CHA -
1(Fighter). +Combat Reflexes / Toughness
2.
3. Dirty Fighting
4.
5. Improved Trip
6.
7. Quicken Spell
8.
9. Greater Trip
10.
11. Power Attack
...and just accept one level off Druid Progression. The advantages of Greater Trip on a character with huge natural reach are enormous - any creature risking an AoO is risking ending their turn bleeding on the floor, having accomplished nothing. With a +2 DEX item like a Snakeskin Vest or Ioun Stone it's easy to get three AoOs per round.
Offense-wise, you can also combo Frigid Touch Stagger with Thunderstomp so that a creature is staggered on the ground.
Anyhow... your build looks perfectly fine; you may want another Extra Rage, but it's not like you have to rage all the time. I would usually ignore Shaping and Boon Companion for a 1 level dip myself, but it depends on what you want feats for.
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Divine Favor and Goliath is already hugely strong, so a Thunderstomp Druid Samsaran could go: 15STR, 12DEX, 14\12CON, 8/10INT, 14/16WIS, 8CHA -
1(Fighter). +Combat Reflexes / Toughness
2.
3. Dirty Fighting
4.
5. Improved Trip
6.
7. Quicken Spell
8.
9. Greater Trip
10.
11. Power Attack...and just accept one level off Druid Progression. The advantages of Greater Trip on a character with huge natural reach are enormous - any creature risking an AoO is risking ending their turn bleeding on the floor, having accomplished nothing. With a +2 DEX item like a Snakeskin Vest or Ioun Stone it's easy to get three AoOs per round.
Offense-wise, you can also combo Frigid Touch Stagger with Thunderstomp so that a creature is staggered on the ground.
Anyhow... your build looks perfectly fine; you may want another Extra Rage, but it's not like you have to rage all the time. I would usually ignore Shaping and Boon Companion for a 1 level dip myself, but it depends on what you want feats for.
I think I'm going to do a variant of this, tweaking it a bit to fit more to my liking.
Instead of Fighter, I'm going to dip Gendarme Cavalier. There is a chance (small, but you never know) that I can convince my GM to allow Druid & Cavalier to stack for the animal companion once it can reach large size. If not, then I won't worry too much about it.
Samsaran Gendarme Cavalier (Order of the Green) 1 / Goliath Druid X.
Feats: Power Attack, Toughness
Character Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack (Druid), Student of Philosophy
Drawback: Naive
Feat Progression:
3) Combat Reflexes
5) Dirty Fighting
7) Improved Trip
9) Greater Trip
11) Quicken Spell
13) Divine Interference
15) Quick Wild Shape
17) ??? (Maybe Boon Companion, don't know)
19) Shaping Focus (to allow the At-Will Wild Shape at level 20)
The Thunderstomp will take longer to access, but I'm able to squeeze in pretty much everything I'm looking at.
If I don't need to be party face, I can replace Student of Philosophy with Wayang Spellhunter (Thunderstomp).
You're gonna want to dip 4 levels out of Druid. Strategically placing levels in Titan Fighter and Barbarian.
Why? Well, you're huge size at 12th level (Shaping Focus preserves that even if you dip before 12th). With Titan Fighter, you can now wield a weapon of gargantuan size. A +X Impact Lucerne Hammer should do the trick. Greatsword could work, too. The important thing is to start at 2d6 for medium size. All told, you'll jump the weapon size to 8d6.
So, what do you do with all those weapon base damage dice? You Vital Strike with them. Why not make that 8d6 triple to 24d6? Better yet, why not make it a straight up 124 damage via Furious Finish. Rage for a round, splat something, move on. You can even rage cycle with that fancy-schmancy Cord of Stubborn Resolve. With your big Strength bonuses, you'll have a very fun amount of damage modifier to go with it.
The real trick with a Goliath Druid is not dying. But you're awesomely equipped with high HP and Regeneration starting at level 12. "But my regeneration turns off to fire damage! Lame!" I mean, yes, it does. Usually. You can be a Rock Troll in a fire-heavy fight if you need to. Good luck finding sonic damage. Or... you can use your Druid spell list, which has both Resist Energy and Protection from Energy on it. That should pretty well keep you from dying. Even more awesomely, is you can invest in Juggernaut's Pauldrons. These give you some bonuses when you go on a kill streak. They can make you big (doesn't stack with polymorph rules, womp womp). Neither of those matter... all that matters is that they give you Ferocity; you no longer stop acting when below 0 HP. And Regeneration says you never die, you just keep getting more beat up. Cheers, HP damage can't kill you unless someone throws fire or acid on you and they need to do it with a pretty big spell cause they've got to get through your spells before you start taking damage from those elements.
The Goliath Druid is basically a nigh unkillable character after 12th level. And it does absurd damage with it's oversized weaponry. You're less Druid than Fighter, but you're a really, really awesome Fighter.
This is pretty good advice if I was looking for a frontline melee. And I might do something like this depending on what the third person will make. However, if said person makes a melee character, I don't want the cleric to pull spellcasting duty all by himself. So I need to keep my spell progression at a reasonable level.
I'm fully planning on doing the Rock Troll form at higher levels and was going to use a lot of your post anyways (although did not know about the Juggernaut's Pauldrons; I'm totally poaching those, lol).
I like the idea of poaching from the Paladin list, honestly. Holy Sword at level 7 is a huge buff.
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If you're going to take a single level of steelblood, I'd go for an ID rager with the anger emotion.
It will give a free skill focus, power attack when raging, and the rage gives a higher str: +6 str, -2 dex, +4 con.
It's a solid multiclass choice, all in all, considering you'll get martial weapons and heavy armors in the deal, as well.
One more thing, since it's a few months away... Definitely see what complete wilderness is going to give you in november!
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If you're going to take a single level of steelblood, I'd go for an ID rager with the anger emotion.
It will give a free skill focus, power attack when raging, and the rage gives a higher str: +6 str, -2 dex, +4 con.It's a solid multiclass choice, all in all, considering you'll get martial weapons and heavy armors in the deal, as well.
One more thing, since it's a few months away... Definitely see what complete wilderness is going to give you in november!
o.O
How is ID rager supposed to be balanced? Wow.
Still, I'll keep it in mind if I decide to go Bloodrager, as well as for future builds.
I like the idea of poaching from the Paladin list, honestly. Holy Sword at level 7 is a huge buff.
Yeah, I'd somehow feel dirty poaching from Paladin, lol. Still, Divine Power isn't on the Paladin list, only Divine Favor. I'd like to grab both :)
How is ID rager supposed to be balanced? Wow.
"This ability replaces bloodline, all bloodline spells, and all bloodline powers."
I will second (third?) combat reflexes over shields.
Goliath druids have a unique advantage- they turn into 'humanoids'.
Besides the fact that this allows them to use normal equipment, this also means they follow the 'tall' template for reach. Large gets 10', huge gets 15'.
So it is very easy for them to make a reach build. Just have a big 2 handed weapon and combat reflexes.
Reach is a better defense than shields, generally (maybe not against archers... but you can just pressure those at close range- they can't even 5' step away to do safe attakcs). Reach allows you to get your full attack more easily, while enemies have to make a move aciton and eat an AoO across the same distance. That just means you get more attacks, while they get less- a very good defense.
And if you grab pushing assault, you can push creatures your size or smaller away to play keep away. And you will usually be large or huge... so you can push just about anything around. You can kite any opponenet.
Reach is a great style- it lets you play a tactical role through your ability to hit things in the face.
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Ah. Another instance where it's "balanced" for the class, but makes it a juicy multiclass dip. Gotcha.How is ID rager supposed to be balanced? Wow."This ability replaces bloodline, all bloodline spells, and all bloodline powers."
Yup! The reason I know that info from the top of my head is that I'm planning to use it, myself. I have this concept of a psychic with a single level of that.
Having the mutation mind archetype would grant the character +10 str and power attack for a swift action (and a free action) at level 2. Usage of the burst of adrenaline spell would up that to +14, if you're willing to be staggered for a round. I was going to combine it with possession at higher levels. Rd1: possess the king's guard closest to him and make a bluff check to act as a natural guard. Round 2, hit the king with a two handed swing of the guard's str +14 +power attack.
But... That's me, not you :)
Have you considered your weapon yet? An oversized Bastard Sword (or dwarf battle axe) does a wonderful 2d8! There is the 2500 gp effortless lace to ignore the penalties. If it's a weapon of impact, you're huge, and under the influence of lead blades, that means 9d8. Greater vital strike would up that to a whopping 36d8 damage! What was that furious finish trick? Oh yeah, 288 damage. This is where strength doesn't matter anymore. You would have to check with your DM, though, if he agrees that when you turn huge, your weapon would stay oversized. Otherwise you're stuck with a greatsword for... Oh... The same damage! Haha! Nevermind :D
Aaanyway. I wanted to point out the following weapon quality: resizing.
It's +4000 gp and works for both melee and ranged weapons.
Note how this quality allows you to use your weapon while you're an elemental (although, don't use a bow as a fire elemental)
As you said, you're married to the goliath druid. But a normal, level 12 druid could wield this very nice huge longbow for 3d6 damage per arrow, while flying around as an air elemental. Or go for an earth elemental, burrow all the way to under the enemy, and hit them hard in melee with that greatsword I just described :)
Of course, you won't have your troll regeneration, but you'll have so much maneuverability as an elemental. And of you're willing to spend money, a wild armor will fit them nicely.
Also, trolls are ugly ;)
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Have you considered your weapon yet? An oversized Bastard Sword (or dwarf battle axe) does a wonderful 2d8! There is the 2500 gp effortless lace to ignore the penalties. If it's a weapon of impact, you're huge, and under the influence of lead blades, that means 9d8. Greater vital strike would up that to a whopping 36d8 damage! What was that furious finish trick? Oh yeah, 288 damage. This is where strength doesn't matter anymore. You would have to check with your DM, though, if he agrees that when you turn huge, your weapon would stay oversized. Otherwise you're stuck with a greatsword for... Oh... The same damage! Haha! Nevermind :D
Yes, I did. I decided to make a few tweaks, and do the effective Reach Goliath Druid approach. I won't have standard action summoning (because I'm married to Goliath Druid; otherwise I would have gone with Saurian Shaman). Details posted below.
Aaanyway. I wanted to point out the following weapon quality: resizing.
It's +4000 gp and works for both melee and ranged weapons.
Note how this quality allows you to use your weapon while you're an elemental (although, don't use a bow as a fire elemental)
As you said, you're married to the goliath druid. But a normal, level 12 druid could wield this very nice huge longbow for 3d6 damage per arrow, while flying around as an air elemental. Or go for an earth elemental, burrow all the way to under the enemy, and hit them hard in melee with that greatsword I just described :)Of course, you won't have your troll regeneration, but you'll have so much maneuverability as an elemental. And of you're willing to spend money, a wild armor will fit them nicely.
Also, trolls are ugly ;)
Yep. Resizing is awesome. I definitely have it penciled in to get at some point. Mainly if I ever drop my weapon and need to pick it up again.
Besides, Goliath Druid gives up Elemental and Plant forms to gain Giant Forms. And I'm kind of married to Goliath Druid <Troll Smash!>
Anyways, here is what I'm now working with:
Sonan Dakashi
NG Samsaran Goliath Druid 2 / Order of the Green Gendarme Cavalier 1 / Goliath Druid X
STR: 15
DEX: 14
CON- 12
INT+ 12
WIS+ 14
CHA: 7
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack (Druid), Student of Philosophy
Drawback: Naive
Favoured Class Bonus will be to HP (to help compensate for the lower CON).
Level Progression:
Druid 1: Toughness
Druid 2:
Cavalier 1: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack
Druid 3: STR. +1
Druid 4: Phalanx Formation, Wild Shape (Megafauna/Dinosaurs)
Druid 5:
Druid 6: Pushing Assault, Wild Shape (Large Giant; as Alter Self)
Druid 7: STR. +1
Druid 8: Vital Strike
Druid 9:
Druid 10: Quicken Spell
Druid 11: STR. +1
Druid 12: Divine Interference, Wild Shape (Large Giant; as Giant Form I)
Druid 13:
Druid 14: Improved Vital Strike, Wild Shape (Huge Giant; as Giant Form II)
Druid 15: STR. +1
Druid 16: Quick Wild Shape
Druid 17:
Druid 18: Shaping Focus
Druid 19: Wild Shape (At-Will), STR. +1
Will pick up an animal companion, since it'll be a three person party. I haven't decided on which one yet. Probably a dinosaur. Stegosaurus? Allosaurus? T-Rex?
The party will probably consist of my Druid, a Dwarf Cleric of Torag, and a Gnome Ranger (who will eventually get an animal companion).
Plan is to wear Bone Breastplate for lower levels, then get Dragonhide Full Plate (with Bone Armor Spikes for the cool appearance) when I can afford it. Weapon choice will be Lucerne Hammer, hopefully getting a +X Impact Lucerne Hammer at some point. Juggernaut's Pauldrons and Regeneration (along with a Resist Energy and/or Protection from Energy) will make me near unkillable.
Looks like I'll be party face. Hence the need for the Student of Philosophy trait.
He'll play using standard reach tactics (minus standard action summoning). Vital Strike when he's limited to a Move + Standard (and for trying to reposition himself when needed).
Mystic Past Life will be used to get Divine Favor, Heroism, and Divine Power from Inquisitor. Although I'm wondering if I should get spells from Cleric and grab Divine Favor, Grace, and Divine Power instead (Grace would work wonders for reach tactics by making my movement not provoke any AoO). I'm not 100% decided on that yet.
Divine Favor/Divine Power synergizes with Fate's Favored. I think there is a magic item (Lucky Horseshoe?) that will grant a luck bonus to saves, which also synergizes nicely with Fate's Favored.
RP-wise, his previous life involved being in the Samsaran nation of Zi Ha, fighting the evil that lives within the land. He had a lot of interaction with the local Taiga Giants, who were at harmony with nature. This impacted him so greatly that in his next life, he followed the path of the Druid.
Thoughts?
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I'd still *really* recommend the 1 level dip into Titan Fighter for the weapon size bump.
If I did, then I'd lose out on a feat, which in this case is Power Attack. Which is awesome when you can bump up your bonus to hit to be almost at fighter level (3/4 BAB + 7 Divine Power +4 for Huge Giant Strength - 2 for Huge Giant Size). Last I checked, Power Attack was great for two handed fighters/barbarians. And, it's a prerequisite for Pushing Assault, which is great when you can be so large and are doing reach tactics. I'll think it over, of course.
In my build, I ran 10 dex, and just let it get low. Since you have access to Restoration spells, it's not the absolute worst thing to risk it (Dex damage isn't terrible common, unlike Con and Str damage). Moreover, what do you care about AC or Reflex saves? REF is usually a straight damage issue and you, uh, don't care. HP damage? Don't care. By the time it really matters, you're well past the point of needing to worry about HP damage.
Slightly higher DEX was for the extra attacks of opportunity from Combat Reflexes. DEX 14 turns to DEX 12 when in Giant Form, which grants 2 AoO. More when I get a DEX belt. Granted, Cat's Grace is a Druid spell, which I could cast. But it's competing for action economy with Divine Favor/Divine Power.
Con is kinda a lark, too. Samsaran has that Con dump, but how much will it matter? Once you hit 12th level and have Regeneration, your concerns of HP damage go away. It becomes just a number. On my build, I had very high Con (played a Dwarf). It was a mistake, I think.
I opted out of Power Attack, in favor of going for a better to-hit over straight damage. You'll hit like a truck already, so there's not much value in milking it. What *really* hurts is missing on one of those Vital Strikes or deeper attacks. Being a 3/4 BAB class, you won't be getting the most out of Power Attack anyway. Could be a spot to get that Improved Init.
To answer your final question, Toughness is all but worthless to you. Don't bother.
All in all, though, you're going to a great place with it.
Yeah, I'm starting to think the same thing, and go with Improved Initiative. CON 12 + favoured class bonus to HP should be enough for me to get to level 12 (which will probably be years at the rate of which we play).
I'll do more thinking on these points.
Now to decide on the animal companion: I'm leaning towards a Tyrannosaurus. It has one big bite attack, and Multiattack will give it a second attack when it's high enough level. Plus, it has Grab. What works well with Grab? Constrict. And I can have it wear some Anaconda's Coils. Plus, I found the spell Greater Scale Spikes, which gives it the equivalent of scaling magic armor spikes. And I can cast Enlarge Person on it thanks to being a Goliath Druid.
So, I can have a Huge Tyrannosaurus that can make 2 attacks with its bite (3 if I cast Divine Power on it via the Share Spells class feature), every hit gives it a free Grapple check (via Grab), and if successful, it deals the Scale Spike damage plus Constrict.
I think my GM will start to hate me at some point...
EDIT 1: Actually, I think it probably would only do the Scale Spike and Constrict once it successfully grabs a target. So not as many times per round as it's bite attack. Not quite as good, but still decent.
EDIT 2: I'll have to remember to also make my weapon Fortuitous. 2x AoO per provoking action is good stuff.
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For a pure combat Goliath multiclass, you could use Weapon Master 4 for the bonus feats, building up to Felling Smash and Greater Trip - also a way to swift-trip, though it doesn't work on a full attack. Worshipping Gorum can grab an interesting Vital Strike Felling Smash trick too, which would hurt bad with a huge greatsword.
Why do you Gorum for Felling Smash, I didnt know it was a worship dependent ?
What is your idea on the below ?
What if you would go and worship Torag as a Druid. Yes he has toil, but it is not an aspect you would focus on as druid, the focus would be on earth and to a lesser extend if you are a goliath druid caves...
Why Torag. Well for the divine fighting technique. You get combat reflexes keyed off Wisdom. You can now dump dex and not care if it goes even lower because you spend your combat rounds enlarged. Granted your initial vital strike will not be as big from a warhammer as from Gorums weapon but the second level of the DFT allows for one attack of opportunity to be another vital strike ...
That's a nice find with the Divine Fighting Technique: Torag. It would allow me to get a better WIS and keep several AoO with minimal DEX.
Now to see if I can find room for it!
EDIT: Only usable with a Warhammer. Which means no polearm. I'll need to think on whether it's worthwhile.
Why do you Gorum for Felling Smash, I didnt know it was a worship dependent ?
For a pure combat Goliath multiclass, you could use Weapon Master 4 for the bonus feats, building up to Felling Smash and Greater Trip - also a way to swift-trip, though it doesn't work on a full attack. Worshipping Gorum can grab an interesting Vital Strike Felling Smash trick too, which would hurt bad with a huge greatsword.
Gorum's Swordsmanship lets you Vital Strike on an AoO, so you can go Vital Strike Felling Smash -> Vital Strike trip AoO.
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Question: is Pushing Assault considered to be a "size-based special attack" in the Powerful Shape feat?
Your wild shapes are mighty and muscular.
Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, druid level 8th.
Benefit: When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample).
A strike made with a two-handed weapon can push a similar sized opponent backward.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you hit a creature your size or smaller with a two-handed weapon attack modified by the Power Attack feat, you can choose to push the target 5 feet directly away from you instead of dealing the extra damage from Power Attack. If you score a critical hit, you can instead push the target 10 feet directly away from you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunities, and the target must end this move in a safe space it can stand in. You choose which effect to apply after the attack roll has been made, but before the damage is rolled.
I'm thinking the answer is no. But figured I'd ask. But if it is, then that might be a good feat to invest in for this build.
I think I'll ask this question in the rules forum and see what people think.
Question: is Pushing Assault considered to be a "size-based special attack" in the Powerful Shape feat?
Your wild shapes are mighty and muscular.
Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, druid level 8th.
Benefit: When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample).
Probably not. The feat gives some pretty specific examples- those are special attacks under the character block of monsters, as well as special properties that come with their attacks. In general, they are all special abilities listed in the list of universal monster abilities.
Pushing assault is a feat, and doesn't seem to be in the same category as all that.
Pushing assault is still pretty sweet though. Even if you are just large, you can push around the majority of enemies- important stuff like demons and devils rarely get larger than that outside of the really high CRs (and by that point, you might as well go huge).
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Just one thing.
If you're taking 1 multiclass level, your animal will be a level behind (unless you take a horse, cuz you mc to cavalier)
Wouldn't it then be better to take the feather, the fur, or the insect subdomain? It would net you an AC at level -4, which is neatly corrected by taking boon companion at level 5.
Any of those subdomains have really nice powers and some good spells, feather being my personal favourite.
And the insect subdomain is at least better than toughness, so you could swap that for boon companion.
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So, my GM has decided to bump up the point buy from 15 to 20. So I have 5 extra build points to spend. I can't decide whether to bump up CON or bump up INT or WIS:
STR: 15, DEX: 14, CON- 14, INT+ 12, WIS+ 14, CHA: 7
or
STR: 15, DEX: 14, CON- 12, INT+ 14, WIS+ 16, CHA: 7
Just one thing.
If you're taking 1 multiclass level, your animal will be a level behind (unless you take a horse, cuz you mc to cavalier)Wouldn't it then be better to take the feather, the fur, or the insect subdomain? It would net you an AC at level -4, which is neatly corrected by taking boon companion at level 5.
Any of those subdomains have really nice powers and some good spells, feather being my personal favourite.
And the insect subdomain is at least better than toughness, so you could swap that for boon companion.
I realize my animal companion would lag behind a level. It's possible I can convince my GM to let the levels stack when the animal is large enough to ride (so probably at level 7).
However, the Insect subdomain is tempting. The Exoskeleton power looks good. I'd need to make room for Boon Companion though. I've decided to drop Toughness for Improved Initiative. So if I do go that route, do I drop Improved Initiative for Boon Companion?
Decisions, decisions.
EDIT: I don't know if I would have access to those subdomains upon re-reading the Goliath Druid archetype:
Primal Bond (Ex): When a goliath druid forms a nature bond, if she selects a cleric domain, she must select from the Animal, Destruction, or Strength domains, or the Ferocity, Growth, or Rage subdomains.
The only subdomains offered are Strength [Ferocity], Plant [Growth], and Destruction [Rage]. So then it'd be straight Animal domain. I don't know whether the extra spells and the ability to speak with animals is worth it. Especially since it's only a 3 person party, and I could really use the extra body at 1st level.
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I tend to include all subdomains when a domain is named. But, as you pointed out, they specifically name a few subdomains, which would then exclude the rest. Bugger...
The only thing you could check is if the aninal domain was without subdomains at the time of writing of the goliath druid archetype, which would give you a solid case. But I doubt it.
All in all, this whole discussion did get me enthusiastic for druids. Perhaps, when the time comes, I might go druid over psychic. Depending on urban vs wild campaign, probably :)
If you're looking for massive style-points, a Druid/Monk1 with the Arctic Domain can end up using Guided Hand and wielding a Flurry of Blows scythe, while shifted into an elemental form...
Goliath Druid's can't go elemental.
Goliath Druid's can't go elemental.
You could do a poor man's goliath druid by going with a vanilla druid with elemental forms.
Elementals can have hands and use weapons if they have a human form (this is according to the subtype- you don't get the subtype, obviously, but you would get functional hands).
Of course, this is a 'poor man's' version, since your equipment is absorbed rather than scaling up with you. You can solve this problem, of course, by buying large/huge sized equipment and putting them on after you wildshape. Not great for instant versatility.... but a lot of people just turn into a single good wildshape and stick with it for fights (often something with pounce).
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Wisdom.
Also, don't overlook the Rage domain. It gives Rage rounds and access to Rage Powers. You can get the one rage power that bumps your accuracy with one attack per rage. It's pretty solid.
Yeah, I'm leaning towards bumping up WIS/INT over CON.
So going with the STR: 15, DEX: 14, CON- 12, INT+ 14, WIS+ 16, CHA: 7
If we had one more player, I'd probably grab the Rage subdomain over the animal companion. But with 3 players, an extra body might be useful.
Not to mention, I'd want to grab Raging Vitality. The only character I ever had which had the Rage subdomain ended up suffering from Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome when he got knocked unconcious from a Green Dragon's full attack. Which was too bad, because he was level 8, and the level after I was going to get Raging Vitality.
I tend to include all subdomains when a domain is named. But, as you pointed out, they specifically name a few subdomains, which would then exclude the rest. Bugger...
The only thing you could check is if the aninal domain was without subdomains at the time of writing of the goliath druid archetype, which would give you a solid case. But I doubt it.
All in all, this whole discussion did get me enthusiastic for druids. Perhaps, when the time comes, I might go druid over psychic. Depending on urban vs wild campaign, probably :)
The concept of subdomains were introduced within the APG, and that's where the Animal [Feather] and Animal [Fur] subdomains appeared in. Giant Hunter's Handbook (where the Goliath Druid is from) appeared last year I think. So as you said, probably a no go.
I haven't played a Druid since 3.5. It's a fun class, both then and now. But then, a lot of classes are fun to play.
If you're looking for massive style-points, a Druid/Monk1 with the Arctic Domain can end up using Guided Hand and wielding a Flurry of Blows scythe, while shifted into an elemental form...
That's kind of fun. Druid/Monk has always been a fun combo. Even after the nerf to Feral Combat Training and the FAQ to Wild Armor. Maybe one day I'll make a Druid/Monk as you suggest (or make the Monktopus or the Hungry Hungry Hippo). But for now, the wild shape into Giant form tickles me.
You could do a poor man's goliath druid by going with a vanilla druid with elemental forms.
Elementals can have hands and use weapons if they have a human form (this is according to the subtype- you don't get the subtype, obviously, but you would get functional hands).
Of course, this is a 'poor man's' version, since your equipment is absorbed rather than scaling up with you. You can solve this problem, of course, by buying large/huge sized equipment and putting them on after you wildshape. Not great for instant versatility.... but a lot of people just turn into a single good wildshape and stick with it for fights (often something with pounce).
Yep. Vanilla Druid who goes Elemental is another good idea. Your armor could even get the Fitting enhancement while your weapon could get Resizing. Then you eliminate the need to buy different size armors.
But, when I brought up the idea of making a Druid who could wild shape into Giants, everyone said that was such a cool idea and I should play it. And that idea tickles me, so that's what I'm going with.
Druids are a very versatile class. Must be why the CRB Druid is one of the more powerful classes in Pathfinder.
So, this is what I'm now going with (on a 20 point buy):
Sonan Dakashi
NG Samsaran Goliath Druid 2 / Order of the Green Gendarme Cavalier 1 / Goliath Druid X
Mystic Past Life: Inquisitor (Divine Favor, Heroism, Divine Power, and ???)
STR: 15
DEX: 14
CON- 12
INT+ 14
WIS+ 16
CHA: 7
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack (Druid), Student of Philosophy
Drawback: Meticulous
Favoured Class Bonus will be to HP (to help compensate for the lower CON).
Level Progression:
Druid 1: Improved Initiative
Druid 2:
Cavalier 1: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack
Druid 3: STR. +1
Druid 4: Phalanx Formation, Wild Shape (Megafauna/Dinosaurs)
Druid 5:
Druid 6: Pushing Assault, Wild Shape (Large Giant; as Alter Self)
Druid 7: STR. +1
Druid 8: Vital Strike
Druid 9:
Druid 10: Quicken Spell
Druid 11: STR. +1
Druid 12: Divine Interference, Wild Shape (Large Giant; as Giant Form I)
Druid 13:
Druid 14: Improved Vital Strike, Wild Shape (Huge Giant; as Giant Form II)
Druid 15: STR. +1
Druid 16: Quick Wild Shape
Druid 17:
Druid 18: Shaping Focus
Druid 19: Wild Shape (At-Will), STR. +1
Will pick up an Allosaurus animal companion. Hopefully, one can consider the Allosaurus as a ridable creature, so Cavalier level can stack for animal companion progression. But if not, I'm not worried about it. I can cast Lockjaw on its claws so it can have 3 chances (4 with Divine Power) to grab the target. Give it an Anaconda's Coils for Constrict. The Greater Scale Spikes spell will give it the equivalent of armor spikes, so that every successful grapple combines armor spike + constrict damage.
Plan is still to wear Bone Breastplate for the lower levels, then get Dragonhide Full Plate (with Bone Armor Spikes). Weapon choice will be a +X Furious Impact Lucerne Hammer. Still going to grab Juggernaut's Pauldrons, which combined with Regeneration (along with Resist Energy / Protection from Energy), will make it hard to take me down.
I just need another suggestion for Mystic Past Life. Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment can already be cast by the Cleric. Maybe Inspiring Recovery in case the Cleric dies? Having 2 people who can bring back someone who's died instantly is a good thing.
But for now, the wild shape into Giant form tickles me.
Well, there's nothing stopping a Giant form Druid from using Monk and Flurry of Blows with a weapon. Sansetsukon could even be flavored with the feel of a giant earth-pounding flail.