Some Dinosaur Questions

[Malzel]

1. If you were to make a classic raptor rider type character, how would you go about that? Which dinosaur would you flavor to equate that? I noticed the allosaurus is illegal and that would have been my go to. Are there any other good options to proxy in? Which class do you think would best emulate it? Is Druid really the only option for that?

2. Do you need special gear to ride an Amargasaurus? Logically, how would that work, with the spines running down its back? Would you require a side mounted carriage? Would this make you vulnerable to attacks from medium sized opponents? What about a Stegosaurus?

3. Do we know what the official reason is for why some dinosaurs are not allowed? I assume some like Diplodocus and Allosaurus were OP somehow but other options seem odd. Notably, the modest Iguanodon and Parasaurolophus are out.

4. On a more general Pathfinder and not just PFS question. Is there a reason why Sauropods don't get to use their claws in combat? I find it strange that Brachiosaurus' mammal equivalent, Baluchitherium, gets to stomp its enemies, but Brachiosaurus, who actually has a wicked claw on each front foot, doesn't get to do the same.

5. Not just pertaining to dinosaurs I suppose, but are huge mounts worth armoring? Or should you focus instead on a high ride to get around their AC issues with Mounted Combat? Or some other tactic, perhaps, to keep them alive?

6. If I took the Ceratosaurus as my animal companion with Mad Dog, would its blood rage ability stack on top of the shared rage? Would this be considered advisable?

[BigNorseWolf]

Hello,

A few rules around critters are in flux right now so this is going to be a lot more maybe than anything else.

If you were to make a classic raptor rider type character, how would you go about that? Which dinosaur would you flavor to equate that? I noticed the allosaurus is illegal and that would have been my go to. Are there any other good options to proxy in? Which class do you think would best emulate it? Is Druid really the only option for that?

beast rider cavalier, mad dog barbarian.

2. Do you need special gear to ride an Amargasaurus? Logically, how would that work, with the spines running down its back? Would you require a side mounted carriage? Would this make you vulnerable to attacks from medium sized opponents? What about a Stegosaurus?

saddles looks like something they're trying to change the rules on in the new season, but...

Edit: double checked additional resources Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary 6 **

Animal Companions: The amargasaurus, deinotherium, devil monkey, dunkleosteus, elasmotherium, giant raven, gigantosaurus, kentrosaurus, quetzalcoatlus, and titanoboa are all legal for play.

Amargasaurus is legal.

The saddle is a legal slot

Saurian (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck): Alligator, crocodile, amargasaurus, ankylosaurus, brachiosaurus, dimetrodon, kaprosuchus, kentrosaurus, stegosaurus, giant chameleon, giant gecko, megalania, monitor lizard

So it can wear a saddle (probably an exotic one)

3. Do we know what the official reason is for why some dinosaurs are not allowed? I assume some like Diplodocus and Allosaurus were OP somehow but other options seem odd. Notably, the modest Iguanodon and Parasaurolophus are out.

No. You can only speculate (but not all speculation is off..)

The diplodocus prefers to attack with its tail. The dinosaur can snap its incredibly long tail with surprising speed like an enormous whip—this is a primary attack that deals bludgeoning and slashing damage. A diplodocus can make two separate attacks with its tail lash as a full-attack action.<--- only reason i can think of for the diplo. (i think the design team counts on hold still and full attack scenarios a lot more than I see them happening)

The Amargasaurus looks too good at fourth level.

The allosaurus is the best one bit dino by a large margin.

... I am at a complete loss as to the Parasauralophus not being legal. Too many yup yup yup jokes?

4. On a more general Pathfinder and not just PFS question. Is there a reason why Sauropods don't get to use their claws in combat? I find it strange that Brachiosaurus' mammal equivalent, Baluchitherium, gets to stomp its enemies, but Brachiosaurus, who actually has a wicked claw on each front foot, doesn't get to do the same.

is this a new thing? First i'm hearing about it.

5. Not just pertaining to dinosaurs I suppose, but are huge mounts worth armoring? Or should you focus instead on a high ride to get around their AC issues with Mounted Combat? Or some other tactic, perhaps, to keep them alive?

Most companions don't get bigger than large without the mammoth rider prestige class. Generally light armor is worth it , but the diminishing retuns per feat in getting light armor (gaining+ ac for 3k) medium armor , and heavy armor make it less than ideal.

[Sithis of Fangwood]

I believe the current hypothesis is that large sauropods had claws for traction, not for weapons.

They couldn't have actually lifted more than one leg off the ground at a time, let alone wave it at predators defensively.

Brachiosaurus was immensely larger than any similarly shaped Megafauna.

[Ascalaphus]

Another reason for armoring is to get access to armor enchantments. There are some good +1 equivalent armor enchantments available, like Fortification.

[Malzel]

Sithis, that is a hypothesis, but there's no direct evidence for it. Namely, suaropod trackways do not demonstrate them employing the unusual flexibility of either their front or hind claws while walking in difficult terrain. Suggesting that they did not use their claws for stability. Brachiosaurus lacks this flexibility in its thumb claw, and it is reduced to merely being a spike. Titanosaurs don't have the thumb claw at all and you would expect the heaviest land animals to exist to evolve stronger traction, not to abandon it entirely.

Also, concerning how many feet they could lift off the ground, most sauropods were probably capable of rearing up, especially the Titanosaurs, which are both known for their morphology lending themselves the most to doing such (out of sauropods in general) and for their exceptional size... Oh and their armor. Why don't we have any cool armored sauropods, Paizo? Ampelosaurus seems like a shoe in for such a high fantasy setting!

Sereno's studies on Jobaria strongly indicate that even at 20 tons, the animal could probably move about on its hind legs faster than we can on ours. Although I should note, I'm not a big fan of Sereno. I think sometimes he jumps too readily to a conclusion.

Of course, Brachiosaurus' weight is heavily distributed towards the front, making a rear with out some kind of support to put a foot on unlikely for balance purposes. But it was only an example since Indricotheres get their stomping attacks in PF and they are definitely bigger than Amargasaurus. It was also very definitely heavier.

As well, up until the Brachiosaurs reach "Gargantuan" size, the two animals share an extremely similar silhouette while growing up. Maybe you could argue that once they reach Gargantuan sizes, that they are less likely to perform a girafee-like kick with the front legs, but up until then, it seems like a common technique herbivores, even big ones, use to defend themselves.

There is also Brontomerus, whose unusual adaption for a powerful kick from its hind limbs suggests these animals were naturally inclined to use their limbs for defense. Probably because their tails provided reach, but no close in defense, I would guess.

As such, I would argue that all of the sauropods present in the game COULD in fact kick their opponents.

So, I don't mean any disrespect, but I feel you are wrong in your assessment that they could not kick at their predators.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Malzel wrote:

1. If you were to make a classic raptor rider type character, how would you go about that? Which dinosaur would you flavor to equate that?

I've been tickled with the idea of making a Druidzilla character with the Leadership Feat. In this case, the Player Character is the Mount, and the rider is the sidekick, like Hong Kong Phooey and Spot. You don't even have to answer the question of which Dinosaur: A Druid can Wildshape into any Dinosaur she wants.

PFS Characters can't take Leadership, of course. If this for PFS, I think a Druidzilla build can still be quite powerful, even with no rider. And if you want a rider, I suspect a fair number of PFS Players would go for the idea of riding a Triceratops, Allosaurus, Pleisiosaur, or Queztacoautlus into battle.

I can think of something else to be said for this: PFS isn't very friendly to mounts and mounted combat: the scenarios put us in highly varied terrain, and only some of the time does that terrain let your Cavalier or Mammoth Rider shine. So, it occurs to me that a Druid who can serve as the coolest mount a Cavalier could every have might be a solid build feature to bring to a PFS table.

[Sithis of Fangwood]

Malzel wrote:

There is also Brontomerus, whose unusual adaption for a powerful kick from its hind...

Unusual is an understatement. "Unique" is more appropriate. And just because it had large muscles does not mean it used them to kick with. It's a novel idea, but has no support that I'm aware of.

Malzel wrote:

I don't mean any disrespect, but I feel you are wrong in your assessment that they could not kick at their predators.

What websites do you get your information from? I admit I'm more of a hobbyist than a specialist, but I read about dinosaur discoveries and news on an almost daily basis, from blogs and news sites all over the world.

[Ascalaphus]

My impression is that PFS isn't friendly to the Ride-By Attack style of mounted characters. They rarely get the straight charge lane they want.

But I've also seen people get good use out of mounts to compensate for their own low movement speed, or to use climbing or flying mount to go places they'd have a hard time going.

This second class of mounted characters works pretty well.