I strongly suspect that RAI (and almost certainly RAW, but continue reading to see what I mean), the cerebremancer prestige class is intended for a character who has an arcane spellcasting class and a manifesting class only.
However, the psychic mage archetype's Formulaic Powers' description could be argued that the psychic mage can get around that hurdle by virtue of having the necessary powers in his spellbook (because the reading of the ability states that his manifester level for such powers is equal to his caster level).
Can anyone shed some official light on whether or not a psychic mage can get into the cerebremancer prestige class on its own without having to have an actual manifester class prior to entering the prestige class?
Thank you kindly,
CB
A follow-up question: because he can prepare powers in his spell slots (thanks to the Formulaic Powers), is the psychic mage considered a manifester for purposes such as meeting the requirements of feats, prestige classes (like the Cerebremancer or War Mind), and other similar cases?
Basically, a player wants to play a psychic mage 6/war mind 1/cerebremancer x, with the levels of cerebremancer going towards psychic mage (for the caster level increase) and war mind (for the manifester level increase). I am just not sure that the psychic mage alone qualifies for the Cerebremancer's requirements of casting 2nd level arcane spells and manifesting 2nd level powers.
IF he took 3 levels of War Mind, that would work, but he also wants to add student of war to the mix and be able to cast 9th level arcane spells by the time he hits 20th level. Long story short, we are trying to convert an old AD&D 2nd edition character of his that was dual-class and multi-class human with psion, fighter, and wizard, along with a handful of skills and powers stuff - ugh, it's a headache.
CB
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while it does say:
These powers can then be prepared as spells, taking up a spell slot for that power‘s level and can be manifested by spending the spell slot.
All through the text though say manifest not cast
Alternately, the psychic mage can expend a higher level unprepared spell slot to manifest a power he has prepared and treated the power as if the number of power points needed to manifest that higher level spell had been spent on the power.
I look at it as you write down the power in your book and prepare it in your mind using your training as a wizard, then you manifest the psionic power like psionics does using PP or converting your energies into psionic PP from the psy mage training.
I would rule no,
"These powers can then be prepared as spells" snip "Alternately, the psychic mage can expend a higher level unprepared spell slot to manifest a power he has prepared"
It's not concrete, but for me that implies he's still manifesting these 'prepared' powers. This is just how I would rule though. I could be wrong.
EDIT: Looking at Cerebremancer though, there is almost no benefit to doing so.
I would rule no,
"These powers can then be prepared as spells" snip "Alternately, the psychic mage can expend a higher level unprepared spell slot to manifest a power he has prepared"
It's not concrete, but for me that implies he's still manifesting these 'prepared' powers. This is just how I would rule though. I could be wrong.
EDIT: Looking at Cerebremancer though, there is almost no benefit to doing so.
By itself, the Cerebremancer is of little use to a psychic mage (beyond increasing the effective caster level for the purposes of determining spells per day and etc.), but if the character also happened to have a manifesting class (like the War Mind), the +1 manifester level increase would apply as well.
The problem is figuring out if the psychic mage alone can qualify for the requirement of "manifesting 2nd level powers" via the Formulaic Powers ability (and having added at least 1 2nd level power into his spellbook) when the manifesting class (in this case, the War Mind) does not have 2nd level powers yet at the time of entry into the Cerebremancer. I can see it being argued either way because the Formulaic Powers is confusing due to how it is written.
I would have preferred that they didn't try to mix the terms of spells, casting, manifesting, and powers interchangeably as they did. The entire ability needs either cleaning up in language or additional phrasing to clarify without ambiguity.
CB
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I dont think they did mix up the terms, i think it kept things clear by NOT saying they CAST the prepared powers, they are saying they still manifest the powers like psionics. In fact the 8th level power allows them to ADD S,V to the power, tells me that they ALSO DONT have those when being used, unlike SPELLS that do. So you saying that the powers are silent, stilled spells in the same spell slots then? That they can start to take same powers that copy spells and just fill them in and use them like that?
Its going to be up to the DM to make a ruling in the end, but RAW it looks clear cut until a dev comes on and says "This is what we meant"
O course he has to prepared it as a spell, he is a mage, but when it is used that is where the definition should if its a spell or power.
Does he wave his hands around and speak? No 1 check vs power, can he augment the power to make it more powerful like a power Yes check vs power. Does he need material compounds NO?
If it looks like a dog but swims, quacks, and flies like a duck is it a dog or a duck? Maybe its just a really ugly duck :)
Bumping to hopefully get a developer's response.
CB
Hey all. Jade Ripley, Dreamscarred Press. Short version: this is why we have editors now. Longer version is honestly that it's a mess. Psychic Mage has deep-seated issues of wording and design which are...no longer in a fixable position, let's say, and parsing the RAW has proven nearly impossible.
So while I'm going to let you know that the RAI is not to permit single-classed entry to Cerebremancer, that's about the best I've got for you.
unchained psychic mage, coming to a web enhancement near you?
Hey all. Jade Ripley, Dreamscarred Press. Short version: this is why we have editors now. Longer version is honestly that it's a mess. Psychic Mage has deep-seated issues of wording and design which are...no longer in a fixable position, let's say, and parsing the RAW has proven nearly impossible.
So while I'm going to let you know that the RAI is not to permit single-classed entry to Cerebremancer, that's about the best I've got for you.
I appreciate the reply. I realise that it is rather an unusual corner case that has been made.
To make matters more troublesome, one of my players has a copy of one of the books that has Mythic Psionics, and according to him, the language of the option that allows a pc to have mythic psionic powers (similar to how spellcasters get mythic spells) is that one needs only a manifester level, not a manifesting class, so the argument be made is that psychic mage's Formulaic Powers qualifies (thus, enabling a psychic mage to have both mythic spells and mythic psionic powers). I don't buy that at all, but I figured I let you know about yet another design issue that came up in regards to the psychic mage.
A new attempt at designing the psychic mage archetype is probably the best solution as opposed to attempting to "fix" the current archetype. What it currently gains is far more useful than what it loses.
CB
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Hey all. Jade Ripley, Dreamscarred Press. Short version: this is why we have editors now. Longer version is honestly that it's a mess. Psychic Mage has deep-seated issues of wording and design which are...no longer in a fixable position, let's say, and parsing the RAW has proven nearly impossible.
So while I'm going to let you know that the RAI is not to permit single-classed entry to Cerebremancer, that's about the best I've got for you.
I appreciate the reply. I realise that it is rather an unusual corner case that has been made.
To make matters more troublesome, one of my players has a copy of one of the books that has Mythic Psionics, and according to him, the language of the option that allows a pc to have mythic psionic powers (similar to how spellcasters get mythic spells) is that one needs only a manifester level, not a manifesting class, so the argument be made is that psychic mage's Formulaic Powers qualifies (thus, enabling a psychic mage to have both mythic spells and mythic psionic powers). I don't buy that at all, but I figured I let you know about yet another design issue that came up in regards to the psychic mage.
A new attempt at designing the psychic mage archetype is probably the best solution as opposed to attempting to "fix" the current archetype. What it currently gains is far more useful than what it loses.
CB
Honestly, my suggestion to you as one player to another is to quietly drag Psychic Mage behind a woodshed and put it out of your misery. It...did not need to be designed, and got made as part of an idea that all of the core classes ought to have a psionic archetype. The team's got rather little interest in going back and making a new Wizard archetype.
Like, I realize this is kinda a crappy answer to get, because we made the thing and as a result we're responsible for it, but there is honestly no version of this concept that can be done to our current standards of design. If your player is looking for wizard thematics rather than wizard specifically, the Shattered Mind Occultist might scratch their itch?
I don't know. I kinda like the archetype. Probably would've been better on a sorcerer though.