Observations on Asmodeus and his Archdukes and A Theory I want to run by people

[doc the grey]

Has anyone here ever noticed how many of the Archdevils that were with Asmodeus before his conquering of hell have been left immolated or otherwise had their bodies destroyed by Asmodeus? Mammon is torn apart in the Malestorm and now lives as a disembodied spirit, Moloch is literally a cindered hulk inside his conflagrating armor, and Baalzebub is now a swarm of flies after displeasing the king of hell. Basically the only one who seems to be left out of this whole affair seems to be Dispater who walks out relatively unscathed thus far.

On top of that, it seems as if the 3 destroyed by Asmodeus' actions also seem to have closer and potentially more intimate/romantic relationships with the King of Hell than the the others. Baalzebub pines for Asmodeus' affection & recognition and when spurned confronts him like a young petulant lover and is castigated for his insolence. Moloch is deceived by Asmodeus into bringing him the bit of the immortal flame due to his initial trusting nature and for his care he is immolated inside his own armor for all eternity. Mammon is considered one of Asmodeus' most beautiful dissenters in his rebellion from heaven and eventually his loyalty to the Prince of darkness and initial leader and his laws gets his beautiful body shredded to pieces.

So my theory is:

I think that Moloch, Baalzebub, and Mammon were all at one point Asmodeus' lovers, angels led astray by Asmodeus' power, prestige, skill, etc. and sought to be closer to the golden boy of the heavenly host and paid the ultimate price for their misconceptions. This is easiest to see with Baalzebub who's constant fawning for the attention of Asmodeus come off much like a younger lover demanding the attentions of his more powerful lover who does not see him in the same way as he does. Moloch and Mammon are a bit more difficult but this can still be seen in some of their write ups. Mammon is collected from the endless possibilities of the Maelstrom to be buried in personal vault for a funeral that Asmodeus and all the surviving members attended. Moloch is given armor to encase his flaming body, the new tainted holy flame now inside it's own walking lantern.

Now, I'm still ironing out some of this but I feel like it's an interesting interpretation of the dynamic among the old guard of the Archdevils and how Asmodeus likely punishes those who wander into his romantic circle. He's the father of lies and in romantic relationships that makes him the most toxic of partners and when combined with the whole "he's a god" thing it means the aftereffects of those romances are likely catastrophic.

Any ideas, expansions, sources that could help expand on this would be greatly appreciated.

[archmagi1]

Its an interesting angle, but in the back of my mind, all I see is Southpark: Bigger, Longer, Uncut. Asmo as Satan (1:1 analogue anyway), and the others as Saddam.

Rampant Speculation follows...

Movie likenesses aside, the fact that Dispater, who wasn't a cohort of Asmodeus but like a 2 degrees of separation ally, isn't some disembodied individual but fully formed gives me another thought. Perhaps the god of contracts and absolute law actually punished his three cohorts for their betrayal of Heaven. They lose their bodies and are cursed to forever yearn for the favor of Asmodeus, to be eternally spurned just as they spurned their heavenly duties. It is fitting, as all Infernal Contracts have a 'catch' and those cohorts who betrayed Heaven to join his quest have to meet the stipulations of their (written or unwritten) contracts.

Dispater, however, was just a mook following Baalzebul. He followed his superior's orders without question, exhibiting the very foundations of Law, and his dutiful service was rewarded with a promotion. Bereft of whatever agreement that the 3 had with Asmo in their fall, Dispater doesn't suffer the consequences. It gives even more intrigue if you imagine Dispater being offered a chance to join in on the head of the rebellion, but upon seeing the terms said, "No I'm good following Baalzebul, as is my duty." His canniness and adherence to law and order may have impressed Asmo, resulting in the post war promotion to Archdevil.

[Marco Polaris]

I found both of these theories interesting, though I favor archmagi's out of a preference for impersonal, more alien outsiders. Thank you both for the quick read.

[Claxon]

Are their sources for your story Doc Grey, because what I know of the deities never actually establishes anything at all like what you're suggesting.

While I like the story that Asmodeus was an angel in the time before good and evil existed and there was only law and chaos, and that Asmodeus was the one to create the distinction between good and evil by the methods he chose to use, eventually being cast out of heaven. From what I understand that is the 3.5 story of Asmodeus, and I don't believe we ever get that much significant understanding of the origin of Pathfinder's Asmodeus.

Oh, and if your source is the Book of the Damned reference you can't trust it to be accurate. Yes it is a source book written by Paizo, but from the perspective of Asmodeus having written it to his followers.

It also contradicts with the multitude of other origin stories that exist for Golarion, so you can't actually believe any of them are correct, though maybe one of them is.

James Jacobs, the creative director, wont actually tell us which version is correct as far as I know.

[The Raven Black]

With the OP's interesting analysis, the previous name for the Queens of the Night and the family ties avowed or hinted at between Dispater, Ragathiel and Vildeis, Hell seems ripe for Soap Opera with heavy sexual connotations, which IMO fits perfectly the way a LE system deals with romantic and sexual relationships (ie, repress and manipulate)

[doc the grey]

archmagi1 wrote:

Its an interesting angle, but in the back of my mind, all I see is Southpark: Bigger, Longer, Uncut. Asmo as Satan (1:1 analogue anyway), and the others as Saddam.

Rampant Speculation follows...

Movie likenesses aside, the fact that Dispater, who wasn't a cohort of Asmodeus but like a 2 degrees of separation ally, isn't some disembodied individual but fully formed gives me another thought. Perhaps the god of contracts and absolute law actually punished his three cohorts for their betrayal of Heaven. They lose their bodies and are cursed to forever yearn for the favor of Asmodeus, to be eternally spurned just as they spurned their heavenly duties. It is fitting, as all Infernal Contracts have a 'catch' and those cohorts who betrayed Heaven to join his quest have to meet the stipulations of their (written or unwritten) contracts.

Dispater, however, was just a mook following Baalzebul. He followed his superior's orders without question, exhibiting the very foundations of Law, and his dutiful service was rewarded with a promotion. Bereft of whatever agreement that the 3 had with Asmo in their fall, Dispater doesn't suffer the consequences. It gives even more intrigue if you imagine Dispater being offered a chance to join in on the head of the rebellion, but upon seeing the terms said, "No I'm good following Baalzebul, as is my duty." His canniness and adherence to law and order may have impressed Asmo, resulting in the post war promotion to Archdevil.

I always assume Dispater's punishment is more of a combination of his loyalty and his differing relationship with Asmodeus. Dispater has been for the longest time a serial monogamist and with his relationships being largely aimed at other feminine gods I don't think he is necessarily attracted to the Prince of darkness in the same way Baalzebub seems to be. To that end, I've always seen Dispater's relationship with Asmodeus as one that is distinctly more platonic and likely the closest thing he has to a "friend". I think Dispater gets Asmodeus more than the others and is likely why he hasn't been deceived or misled to the same extent as some of his other generals.

That said, even though Dispater is Asmodeus' closest ally and confidant from the old guard his scepter also acts as lens through which the lord of Hells can peer in on Dispater, constantly monitoring and spying on his ally whether or not Dispater might like it. I feel like its a testament to the being Asmodeus is as the Master of Lies that he only feels comfortable with something close to a friend if he's allowed to completely monitor him at all times should he so desire.