Arcane Lock vs Knock

[Aurorius Leyrin]

Arcane Lock wrote:

An arcane lock spell cast upon a door, chest, or portal magically locks it. You can freely pass your own arcane lock without affecting it. If the locked object has a lock, the DC to open that lock increases by 10 while it remains attached to the object. If the object does not have a lock, this spell creates one that can only be opened with a DC 20 Disable Device skill check. A door or object secured with this spell can be opened only by breaking in or with a successful dispel magic or knock spell. Add 10 to the normal DC to break open a door or portal affected by this spell. A knock spell does not remove an arcane lock; it only suppresses the effect for 10 minutes.

vs

Knock wrote:

Knock opens stuck, barred, or locked doors, as well as those subject to hold portal or arcane lock. When you complete the casting of this spell, make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus. If successful, knock opens up to two means of closure. This spell opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold something shut). If used to open an arcane locked door, the spell does not remove the arcane lock but simply suspends its functioning for 10 minutes. In all other cases, the door does not relock itself or become stuck again on its own. Knock does not raise barred gates or similar impediments (such as a portcullis), nor does it affect ropes, vines, and the like. The effect is limited by the area. Each casting can undo as many as two means of preventing access.

When you are using arcane lock it either creates a lock at a DC 20, or it improves a lock by +10. So a Good lock becomes a DC 40.

Knock says it grants a +10 to beat the DC of a lock. The problem I am having with Knock is that it doesn't clarify when it suppresses Arcane Locked doors.

As written

Knock wrote:

If used to open an arcane locked door, the spell does not remove the arcane lock but simply suspends its functioning for 10 minutes.

This by order of written format that first declares that Knock has to beat a CL check against the DC of the lock with a +10, but in order to suppress the Arcane Lock it has to open an arcane locked door meaning you have to succeed in opening the door in order suppress the arcane lock for 10 minutes.

So you have to beat the DC 40 with the Knock check in order to suppress the arcane lock.

[Dr Styx]

If just using the Knock spell to open any lock the +10 of the spell negates the +10 for not using thieves' tools.

Disable Device wrote:

Open Locks: The DC for opening a lock depends on its quality. If you do not have a set of thieves' tools, these DCs increase by 10. Good Lock =30

Knock spell would suppress the Arcane Lock spell on the Good Lock first, dropping the DC from 50 (30+10Arcane Lock+10no thieves' tools) back to 40. Then you must make the Caster Level check (1D20+CL+10Knock=check). So you would need to be at least 10th level to open a Good Lock with Arcane Lock on it with the Knock spell.

[Diego Rossi]

An effect suppressing a spell suppress the spell. There is no caster level check to achieve the suppression in the spell description, so it is automatic.
Then you apply knock against the mundane lock.

[Aurorius Leyrin]

Okay thanks for that clarification, I also read somewhere that if you arcane lock a door it can't even be opened by the key that would normally open said lock.

Knock wrote:

A door or object secured with this spell can be opened only by breaking in or with a successful dispel magic or knock spell.

Is this for Casters to say Arcane Lock a door, Knock it to suppress the arcane lock, use the key and open the door, close and lock said door again and then 10 minutes later the arcane lock resumes?

[Mudfoot]

Knock wrote:

Each casting can undo as many as two means of preventing access.

Arcane Lock is a means of preventing access, and so is the Good lock. So if you have an arcane locked Good Lock is that one means or two?

Obviously it won't matter if that's all there is, but if the door is Arcane-Good-Locked and bolted, it may (or may not) be a problem.

[Diego Rossi]

Mudfoot wrote:

Knock wrote:

Each casting can undo as many as two means of preventing access.

Arcane Lock is a means of preventing access, and so is the Good lock. So if you have an arcane locked Good Lock is that one means or two?

Obviously it won't matter if that's all there is, but if the door is Arcane-Good-Locked and bolted, it may (or may not) be a problem.

Where you have taken the text you are citing? It seem the old 3.X version, not the current one. The current one is:

Knock wrote:

When you complete the casting of this spell, make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus. If successful, knock opens up to two means of closure.

As I read it, that mean that if there are multiple locks, bars and others ways of closing the door, a successful casting of knock will be applied against two of them. Probably at the caster choice.

Let's say I am paranoid and my door is locked by:

a DC 30 lock;
a DC 20 dead bolt on the inside
a DC 30 bar
and that bar is secured by a DC 20 padlock.

You cast knock and roll a 25. You can undo the dead bolt and the padlock.
If you roll a 35 you can undo the padlock and the bar or the lock and the dead bolt and so on.