Nargrym's Steel Hand

[Jamz]

*Possible Spoiler Alert for Giantslayer*
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OK, so, Nargrym's Steel Hand, how would you guys rule this part of the Artifact in question - "However, whenever the wearer of the hand is within line of sight of a creature with the giant subtype, he must succeed at DC 15 Will save or be compelled to attack the giant, as suggestion."

Currently we're playing it as, when Giant's are seen, the player rolls a will save vs every giant and has to attack any of the ones he failed his will save against. Simple enough... but, last week, the player said, "Once I attack the giant once, the 'suggestion' has been satisfied." and I replied, "But then wouldn't you have to then move on to the next target you failed on, provoking attacks of opportunity?"

But now, reading it again, is there a limit to this effect? In other words, as long as you are within LOS of a giant, do you constantly have to save over and over again? Or once you save, you no longer have to save again? (in which case, for how long?) His will save is pretty low, and I think this thing is going to get him killed soon. I see no way to prevent it either...

Also, how much leeway is there with "attack the giant" as a suggestion? Full move until you reach the target? Allow single move and buff with an item, spell, etc?

[taks]

I do just one roll.

[taks]

Per encounter. And I limit the distance to something reasonable for the given encounter. Sitting on a ledge overlooking a giant encampment 100 yds away doesn't get a roll, but sneaking up behind said encampment at 50' does.

Anything more becomes a serious hassle.

[Jamz]

Do you consider, "one attack and it's satisfied" or "attack until it's dead"? I'm assuming the former because it says "attack" and not "kill", but that does lead into the issue if you fail a save on 4 out of 6, you have to go and attack each of the 4 one time?

[taks]

I'd say one attack. He's been lucky, however, in that the only time he's failed we were about to do battle anyway. Of course, that one attack will ultimately result in "until he's dead" either by his hand, or another party member's. Let's face it, this AP ain't about getting all schmoozy with giants and having them over for tea and crumpets on Sunday. ;)

[Untentril]

Firstly the Hand affects a wielders mind. If your characters mind is affected...you are roleplaying you shouldn't be going "well, i don't want my pc to attack this guy!" or "but wait, isn't this giant going to later become my ally? I read that when I sneaked a peek at the book."

The effect of the artifact is continuous..the wording is fairly clear.
"Whenever you are within line of sight of a..." If you succeed..and you know what the Hand does.. get out of los. (But..after the first few times it happens PC's should be getting a bonus to resist, should they wish.)

So that should be every round until it works. It doesn't say "when you first see" or "when you encounter."

"a creature of the giant subtype" if there are multiple giants, rather than rolling twenty dice you'd reasonably use a modifier to the will save.

"As suggestion" Suggestions can't force subjects to do things they think will likely result in their death or that are very obviously a ba idea...but remember that's the PC, not the player, eh?

"one attack" misses the point, doesn't it? an attack..and an attack action are not the same thing. The artifact doesn't suggest "hehe, I should slap that giant with my the back of my hand" nor does it say "the pc must suicidally charge the giant" a suggestion must be something that can seem like a good idea to the subject of the suggestion, so a sorcerer is unlikely to be swayed by a suggestion to use a charge maneuver on an ettin...or even to get within reach.

So this artifact implants a thought in the mind of the wielder. It's trying to get the wielder to attack giants, not use an attack action..but be the tool for the expression of it's animosity. If it doesn't get what it wants it will keep trying and trying until it does.

Allowing PC's to get away with "one attack (action)" if they fail the save seems to be deliberately missing the point....to the extent that you may as well just roll for treasure at the end.

9 cents.

[taks]

Once you make that one attack you're pretty much into it for the duration.

[Untentril]

Yeah..you did say that...and I did go on entirely unnecessarily :)

[Jamz]

Untentril, I pretty much agree with all that. BTW, I'm the healer here in this situation trying to keep my brother (a rogue) alive mostly...

I think our rogue is reading it more like "the pc must suicidally charge the giant" which is not completely right. But to his credit, he village was wiped out by giants and had already been playing a pretty strong hatred for giants before the hand, so it's just gotten messier since then.

So last week, he spotted a giant, failed the saved, we rolled init, he charged, then there were like 6 or 7 of em. He failed against at least 4. Then poop hit the fan, there were several members nauseated, he was low on hit points. So it started to get to the point of, "ok, do I still need to follow the suggestion and attack, can I drink a cure potion? what are my choices?"

I'm thinking I need to take Spell Immunity to cast on him, otherwise this thing is just going to get him killed soon...

[taks]

Untentril wrote:

Yeah..you did say that...and I did go on entirely unnecessarily :)

It was a good read, either way!

[Untentril]

If the rogue is thinking "I need to stop letting this artifact make me Chaaaarge, then he should already, as spell description, be getting a bonus to save. If he thinks it's suicidal, the suggestion should be entirely ineffective.

Personally tho I'd give the artifact 'animal cunning' in the sense that it's (the suggestion) more subtle than 'chaaaarge,' but consequently less reckless and more suited to the rogue, but fails are still fails and need to be acted upon.

But bear in mind that is is a mental suggestion, and circumstances changing changes minds also. If a "suggestion" to wait for two giantkin in ambush seems like a great idea and he fails will save b/c he hates giants anyway and thus suffers malus.. he waits in ambush. If he sees an army of giantkin come around the corner, the original suggestion is not entirely relevant anymore. Attacking an army solo for an 8th lvl rogue is generally not a gd idea.

"poop hit the fan and several members were nauseated" these giants are pretty gd engineers huh.

For Spell Immunity.. it's an sla from a magic item. it's an artifact, but at DC15 a weak effect and it seems to me that'd work fine.

A dog (wis12) fails its will save vs suggestion DC15 (-x malus for being exactly what the dog wants to do anyway) to chase b$&@! in heat over a busy road. Dog gets hit by car, has surgery.

Dog recovers and gets hit by suggestion DC15 again (-x malus for same reason) but dog hesitates before crossing road..waits till cars aren't there or have slowed..and goes for it.

I'm going to presume that your DM didn't allow the Rogue to take 2 Int.

[Jamz]

I think "our" problem is more player vs GM. The GM isn't forcing it at all. I think the player has a devil-may-care attitude and likes to see us scramble. I play a Life Oracle and so far, have kept the party alive and up for the most part so we haven't had the "dog gets hit by the car and needs surgery" yet...

I'm also playing the "adopted brother" who will do what ever it takes for my brother (including letting other party members drop to save him). So it's a bad situation for them lol

In reality, it's not a huge problem and is making for a great roleplaying experience... The major problem we have now is we've lost our Rogue - "let me sneak up ahead and see what I can scout out" because if we do and he see's a giant......

Thanks for all the feedback though! I need to take the whole "it's a suggestion and not a demand for suicide" argument to the table.