I was fine with Time Stop until I played my 1st high level wizard & read the stuff about you actually speeding up. Just yesterday. The concept in my head was everyone else was slowed down which implied an area, an emanation & thus the Master of Shaping High Arcana of the Archmage Prestige Class could be seriously messy. I was planning on excluding the BBEG, my archer & a line between them. Then I read the spell & it literally made no sense.
Game balance things aside, there is no reason why you couldn't attack them, coup de grace etc. It makes sense that you could cast spells, but the effects would basically be paused & wouldn't take effect until the time stop ended. Fireball beads would hang in place the moment they left you. It makes sense why you couldn't remove someone else's ring, what is a gentle sliding off the finger, becomes an new level of yanking on on their finger whilst you are subject to a time stop. If you can affect unattended objects, you can affect objects in other people's possession, short of not having to manipulate relatively frozen people. Taking a weapon from their hand would be out, removing their hat would not.
But there is still a problem with interacting with other objects. Moving very fast *increases your mass*. A weaking wizard could very likely break stuff accidentally. You don't want physics in your fantasy games, fine. How do you explain not being able to attack AT ALL with this Haste On Crack? Of course I see the game balance problem of allowing it, I'm arguing for a combination of flavor & mechanics that makes a modicum of sense.
So self buffing wouldn't work until "Time Stop" ended. Mechanically they would take effect on resumption of normal speed. Not a big deal, however Wail of the Banshee might. Spell duration "Instantaenous" isn't literally that, read the description of Fireball. The effects might have some travel time even if it normally doesn't make sense to model.
Now: If it was some "reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" explanation about how you or them were subject to localised time distortions, that would fix this conceptual problem & we could begin to design balanced mechanics around it. Not before. The explanation given is unresolvable & confuses the mechanics.
The Haste On Crack problem & not being able to attack is fixed & balance is maintained if flavor is switched from "speeding you up" to "A close fitting bubble of localised time distortion surrounds you. Time flows faster for you whilst everyone else seems frozen in time." You would still allow you to buff yourself & move about which is the intention of the spell. You could also arguably create effects beyond your bubble, but manifestation should be suspended from your point of view until your "Time Stop" spell finished.
The game balance problem with such a bubble becomes thus: You would still allow you to spam offensive spells. But not only would be increasing your damage output, you would be damage spiking like a boss.
This flavor wording was a change from AD&D to 3.0. Ad&d actually got something right:
Time Stop (Alteration)
Level: 9 Components: V Range: 0 Casting Time: 9 segments Duration: ½ segment/level + 1-8 segments Saving Throw: None Area of Effect: 3" diameter sphere
Explanation/Description: Upon casting a Time Stop spell, the magic-user causes the flow of time to stop in the area of effect, and outside this area the sphere simply seems to shimmer for an instant. During the period of spell duration, the magic-user can move and act freely within the area where time is stopped, but all other creatures there are frozen in their actions, for they are literally between ticks of the time clock, and the spell duration is subjective to the caster. No creature can enter the area of effect without being stopped in time also, and if the magic-user leaves it, he or she immediately negates the spell. When spell duration ceases, the magic-user will again be operating in normal time.
So the name of the spell was kept, even though the concept was fundamentally changed. Why? Don't know, but rationalising it as speeding you up allows everyone but you to be affected mechanically & you can be halfway across the map before they anyone else can act. What is a '3" diameter sphere'? Sounds small. I think 3.0 staff overdid things. They tweaked one element & left an incoherrent mess in their wake. That's on them.
That they kept it at 3.5 is on them & the same for Pazio staff.
If the argument is the flavor didn't matter, it's the mechanics, then just change the mechanics. The old flavor was more applicable than this new garbage. I'm very concept driven & it annoys me when the concepts completely jar with the mechanics.
TL:DR AD&D Time Stop was actually Time Stop. 3.0 changed it to speeding you up, yet they kept the name of the spell despite the concept changing & mechanics no longer making any sense. Because of player adjustment issues most likely. 3.0 staff managed to outdo the worst of Gygax's nonsense with the change in flavor wording.
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>Applying physics to D&D
Found your problem.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
For the record, a 3" diameter sphere would translate to a 15 foot radius sphere. So inside this tiny area, time is stopped.
The 3.x explanation allows for the entire multiverse to be timestopped by a single caster without any ridiculous "but what about on a plane where time flows at a different rate" shenanigans.
I vastly prefer the 3.x version myself since it's actually useful.
Chemlak wrote: For the record, a 3" diameter sphere would translate to a 15 foot radius sphere. So inside this tiny area, time is stopped.
The 3.x explanation allows for the entire multiverse to be timestopped by a single caster without any ridiculous "but what about on a plane where time flows at a different rate" shenanigans.
I vastly prefer the 3.x version myself since it's actually useful.
15' huh? Yeah that's ridiculous, since when does a wizard get that close? I never played a blasting wizard in AD&D, but 15' range of the enemy implies you were already near your front line. Why would a wizard be that close? Any why bunch up? Ugh.
As for "but what about on a plane where time flows at a different rate". I acknowledge your point. I suppose you might be alluding to AD&D Time Stop's potential interpretation of an arbitary time flow of the caster, that could theoretically be *slower* than that of the plane.
Dropping Einsteinian theories for the moment, which I don't pretend to particularly understand. This is a fantasy world, where things operate fundamentally differently in some ways. The variable ambient time flow problem could be worked around by:
"The wizard forms a bubble, drawing 'Time Energy' from the plane they are on to inside their bubble. Their personal flow of time speeds up, whilst the flow of time outside the bubble seems. It's a 9th level spell - you are explicitly warping the flow of time across that plane - wow.
The offensive spell spamming problem could be overcome as awizardidit. As author of the spell, they contrived limitations that did not have to be there. They could work in nullifying magic to prevent offensive spells leaving the bubble, in much the same manner as Invisibility is *somehow* cancelled.
Sundakan wrote: >Applying physics to D&D
Found your problem.
The logical extension of that position is Large Medium & Small weapons should do the same damage, falling damage doesn't exist, strength to damage isn't a thing, encumbrance penalties don't exist and damage multipliers on weapons in a charge (lance) or braced weapons (Longspear) don't happen.
But in every case the opposite is true. Physics is being given a nod. Are you against this?
I'm not arguing for precise calculations of Force + Mass = velocity = Damage. I'm asking for a basic coherence that doesn't directly & explicitly contradict the related mechanics. Flavor, 3.75/Pathfinder Time Stop isn't Time Stop, but Haste On Crack, but Mechanically it is an incoherent mess.
Kendra wrote: Sundakan wrote: >Applying physics to D&D
Found your problem.
The logical extension of that position is Large Medium & Small weapons should do the same damage, falling damage doesn't exist, strength to damage isn't a thing, encumbrance penalties don't exist and damage multipliers on weapons in a charge (lance) or braced weapons (Longspear) don't happen.
But in every case the opposite is true. Physics is being given a nod. Are you against this?
I'm not arguing for precise calculations of Force + Mass = velocity = Damage. I'm asking for a basic coherence that doesn't directly & explicitly contradict the related mechanics. Flavor, 3.75/Pathfinder Time Stop isn't Time Stop, but Haste On Crack, but Mechanically it is an incoherent mess. No point in arguing with Sundakan about that stuff he doesn't believe in trying to get verisimilitude in DnD. Nothing against him its just not his preference.
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The simplest fix by the way would be to re-flavor it.
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Vidmaster7 wrote:
No point in arguing with Sundakan about that stuff he doesn't believe in trying to get verisimilitude in DnD. Nothing against him its just not his preference.
I like verisimilitude. It's realism I think is silly.
All verisimilitude requires is INTERNAL consistency. The whole game works on Artistic License Physics (and Biology, and Geology, and everything else, for that matter).
It is not a perfect simulation of our world, nor is it meant to be.
If it did, dragons wouldn't be able to fly, Giants would collapse under their own weight, and Lightning Bolt wouldn't work underwater.
Pathfinder only models the veeeerrry basic assumptions of reality. Gravity exists, muscles make you stronger, people need to eat and breathe, and sharp things hurt.
You go any further than that in any branch of science and things break down. The ecology for particularly huge animals, magical beasts, aberrations, etc. make no sense (they usually live in places with not enough food to sustain them). Not counting that they generally don't follow the square-cube law and thus your Giant Dire Wolf snaps its dainty ankles and suffocates under its own weight.
House cats can easily kill human beings, no contest.
The average person can hold their breath for two minutes without any training, and without strain.
Hot weather rules make it literally impossible, if applied to the real world, for people here in Florida to EXIST during the summer, much less even hotter climates.
Complaining about the one time this one magic spell only 17th+ level character can cast didn't model reality is just asinine. If you reaally care about how physics and whatnot are modeled, start by rewriting the core assumptions of the game, 'cuz they ain't any better.
Sundakan wrote: Vidmaster7 wrote:
No point in arguing with Sundakan about that stuff he doesn't believe in trying to get verisimilitude in DnD. Nothing against him its just not his preference.
I like verisimilitude. It's realism I think is silly.
All verisimilitude requires is INTERNAL consistency. The whole game works on Artistic License Physics (and Biology, and Geology, and everything else, for that matter).
It is not a perfect simulation of our world, nor is it meant to be.
If it did, dragons wouldn't be able to fly, Giants would collapse under their own weight, and Lightning Bolt wouldn't work underwater.
Pathfinder only models the veeeerrry basic assumptions of reality. Gravity exists, muscles make you stronger, people need to eat and breathe, and sharp things hurt.
You go any further than that in any branch of science and things break down. The ecology for particularly huge animals, magical beasts, aberrations, etc. make no sense (they usually live in places with not enough food to sustain them). Not counting that they generally don't follow the square-cube law and thus your Giant Dire Wolf snaps its dainty ankles and suffocates under its own weight.
House cats can easily kill human beings, no contest.
The average person can hold their breath for two minutes without any training, and without strain.
Hot weather rules make it literally impossible, if applied to the real world, for people here in Florida to EXIST during the summer, much less even hotter climates.
Complaining about the one time this one magic spell only 17th+ level character can cast didn't model reality is just asinine. If you reaally care about how physics and whatnot are modeled, start by rewriting the core assumptions of the game, 'cuz they ain't any better. Well expressed.
How does Haste On Crack preventing you from attacking at all serve verisimilitude?
For game balance, I don't want them attacking *at all*. I'm calling for some flavor/mechanics combo that makes sense more or less.
A time bubble could isolate the caster interactions with individuals. I don't even think you could call it Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey. A localised pocket of altered time flow sounds very powerful to me, hence the rationalisation for a personal barrier. Einsteinian Relativity & physics in general didn't enter into it.
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