I really want to like the Mystic Theurge. It's a great concept; someone who's devoted themselves to magic in all its forms. But the execution just leaves a little something to be desired, and that something is twofold; the slow start, and the almost unmanageably huge spell lists. I've always wanted something with a more graceful progression, and something that, while still versatile, didn't have the sheer number of different options the mystic theurge has on any given turn.
I've taken a stab at it with the following Oracle archetype, and I'd appreciate any commentary on balance anyone would like to give me.
-----
Thaumaturge (Oracle Archetype)
A thaumaturge is someone who has devoted themselves to magic in all of its forms. Their studies of the divine mysteries of the universe has granted them insights into arcane magic as well as divine.
Hit Dice & Base Attack Bonus
A thaumaturge has a d6 hit dice, and their base attack bonus is equal to ½ of their oracle level. This replaces the oracle’s normal hit dice and base attack bonus.
Armor Proficiencies
A thaumaturge is not proficient with medium armor or shields. This alters the oracle’s armor proficiencies.
Spells
A thaumaturge casts divine spells from the Cleric list and arcane spells from the Sorcerer list. When selecting spells at first level or at each new oracle level, they may choose to select a spell of the same level from the Sorcerer list, so long as they know more divine spells than arcane spells at each spell level. These spells are treated as arcane spells for the purposes of arcane spell failure when wearing armor or using shields, qualifying for feats and prestige classes, and other effects, but are otherwise cast normally by the oracle using their spell slots and according to their Charisma.
Any spells gained by other class features (Cure/Inflict spells, an oracle’s mystery, and some curses, for example) are treated as divine spells, but are not counted when determining if a thaumaturge has at least half divine spells at a given spell level. Any spell that appears on both the Oracle and the Sorcerer spell list may be chosen as either an arcane or a divine spell. This choice is permanent and may not be changed, unless the spell is exchanged at an even numbered Oracle level.
This ability alters the spells feature.
Thaumaturgic Revelations
All thaumaturge oracles have access to the following revelations, regardless of what mystery they choose.
Armored Caster: You can now cast arcane spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. You still incur the normal arcane spell failure chance wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or a shield, and for arcane spells received from other classes if the spell in question has a somatic component. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.
Spell Synthesis: You gain Spell Synthesis, as the Mystic Theurge class feature. Instead of using spells from different spellcasting classes, you must cast one arcane and one divine spell with this ability. You must be at least 15th level to select this revelation.
Theurgy: You gain Theurgy as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites. Instead of sacrificing spell slots, you may use the abilities granted by the feat a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier. You must be at least 3rd level to select this revelation.
Aside from the fact that this obviously heavily favors anyone wanting to have their theurge primarily focus on divine magic as opposed to arcane, I see some issues.
Ultimately, a character of this archetype is only going to be able to have at most two arcane spells of a given non-zero spell level. That's... rather underwhelming, especially since this is a spontaneous caster. Because spells known through class features don't count, your arcane spell selection is going to be pretty well dwarfed (more or less so depending on Mystery). Not to mention the progression is somewhat slow in actually gaining them.
Altering hit dice and base attack bonus is a very significant change. While it's not necessarily out of the scope of an archetype, existing Paizo archetypes (that I'm aware of) at most alter base attack bonus. And while archetypes don't really need to be perfectly in-line power-wise, I don't think that a handful of arcane spells really offsets this.
Honestly, as someone who has played a Mystic Theurge and wished there was a better way to do it, I doubt I would play this. While I realize you are intentionally trying to limit options, it feels like that goes against the concept to a degree. And frankly, an oracle who simply invested in UMD would be probably better than taking this archetype.
And at very least, you shouldn't leave it as a sole archetype. You should have an alternative that let arcane magic be the primary spellcasting.
...Ultimately, a character of this archetype is only going to be able to have at most two arcane spells of a given non-zero spell level...
Altering hit dice and base attack bonus is a very significant change...And while archetypes don't really need to be perfectly in-line power-wise, I don't think that a handful of arcane spells really offsets this
The main concern that I was trying to address with these two changes was preventing someone from taking all Sorcerer/Wizard spells and playing them as a sorcerer with d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, cure spells, and no need for UMD. I may have overcompensated a little.
And at very least, you shouldn't leave it as a sole archetype. You should have an alternative that let arcane magic be the primary spellcasting.
Hm, perhaps a complementary Sorcerer archetype is in order. Or possibly allowing the Thaumaturge to pick a Sorcerer bloodline, learn the bloodline spells as additional spells known, and let them choose the bloodline powers and bloodline arcana in place of a mystery.
Really, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of giving them a Sorcerer bloodline as well as access to a mystery. Something like this:
-----
Bloodline
At first level, a thaumaturge selects a bloodline from the list of bloodlines available to Sorcerers. They gain that bloodline’s bloodline arcana, which applies to both their arcane and divine spells, and that bloodline’s class skill. At third level, and every two levels thereafter, they add another bloodline spell to their spells known; these spells are treated as arcane spells.
A thaumaturge may select one of their bloodline's powers in place of an oracle mystery, as long as their oracle level is equal to or higher than the level at which a sorcerer would have been granted that bloodline power.
...and I just realized I didn't proofread the 'spells' feature closely enough. The 'more divine than arcane' clause should have read something more like:
When selecting spells at first level or at each new oracle level, they may choose to select a spell of the same level from the Sorcerer list, as long as no more than half of their spells known for each spell level are arcane.
The intention was to let them have a cleric spell and a sorcerer spell at level one, but not two sorcerer spells, and so on up the line.
Instead of an Oracle archetype... I'd rework it as a Mystic Theurge archetype specifically for spontaneous casters. It would allow for spell slots from each class to be merged into a single combined pool; at total amount of spells -1 (possible example)
It may be personal preference, but I really can't see a Mystic Theurge as anything but a prepared caster. In my head it's always been someone dedicated to learning and understanding magic in all its forms. Not someone who stumbles upon both Divine and Arcane magic through a fluke, which is basically what Oracles and Sorcerers are.
If anything, I would want to see a Mystic Theurge archetype for Shaman, which already has built in Arcane/Divine shenanigans to some degree.
Instead of an Oracle archetype... I'd rework it as a Mystic Theurge archetype specifically for spontaneous casters. It would allow for spell slots from each class to be merged into a single combined pool; at total amount of spells -1 (possible example)
An archetype for a prestige class, huh? That sort of thing would never have really occured to me as an option. It'd have to be pretty good to get around that whole 'trying to contribute at 7th level with nothing but 2nd level spells', though.
If I were going to rework the Mystic Theurge but keep it as a prestige class, it'd probably end up looking an awful lot like the old 3.5 prestige class Ultimate Magus. Level 5 entry, would require 2nd level spells in one class and 1st level spells in the other, and offer additional caster level boosts for your off class.
It may be personal preference, but I really can't see a Mystic Theurge as anything but a prepared caster. In my head it's always been someone dedicated to learning and understanding magic in all its forms. Not someone who stumbles upon both Divine and Arcane magic through a fluke, which is basically what Oracles and Sorcerers are.
Probably personal preference either way, yeah. I admit to a mild preference for spontaneous casting, myself; the Arcanist is basically everything I ever wanted in a Wizard.
I can definitely see some kind of companion archetype that focuses on prepared casting. Maybe a Wizard archetype that gives up its arcane school powers (and possibly some other stuff) in exchange for a single domain, and the ability to scribe Cleric spells into their spellbook. Possibly some limited channel energy stuff, but even an existing Cleric/Wizard/MT is going to have between 2d6 and 4d6 channel energy even at 20th level, so maybe it's not really worth making a space for.
Maybe I'll take a crack at it once I've got the Thaumaturge in a place I like it.
If anything, I would want to see a Mystic Theurge archetype for Shaman, which already has built in Arcane/Divine shenanigans to some degree.
Admittedly I've not really taken a look at Shaman, because the flavour never really appealed to me. Maybe I'll have to take a second look.
Alright, time for the revised Thaumaturge; changes include access to a Sorcerer bloodline, and changes in the language to spells to give the Thaumaturge a little more access to arcane spells, so that they can have a list that's half arcane and half divine (now including their free cure spells).
-----
Hit Dice & Base Attack Bonus
A thaumaturge has a d6 hit dice, and their base attack bonus is equal to ½ of their oracle level. This replaces the oracle’s normal hit dice and base attack bonus.
Armor Proficiencies
A thaumaturge is not proficient with medium armor or shields. This alters the oracle’s armor proficiencies.
Spells
A thaumaturge casts divine spells from the Cleric list and arcane spells from the Sorcerer list. When selecting spells at first level or at each new oracle level, they may choose to select a spell of the same level from the Sorcerer list, as long as no more than half of their spells known for each spell level are arcane. These spells are treated as arcane spells for the purposes of arcane spell failure when wearing armor or using shields, qualifying for feats and prestige classes, and other effects, but are otherwise cast normally by the oracle using their spell slots and according to their Charisma.
Any spells gained by other class features (an oracle’s mystery and some curses, for example) are treated as divine spells, but are not counted when determining if a thaumaturge has at least half divine spells at a given spell level. The Cure or Inflict spells automatically gained at each spell level are counted when determining if a thaumaturge has more arcane than divine spells. Any spell that appears on both the Oracle and the Sorcerer spell list may be chosen as either an arcane or a divine spell. This choice is permanent and may not be changed, unless the spell is exchanged at an even numbered Oracle level.
This ability alters the spells feature.
Bloodline
At first level, a thaumaturge selects a bloodline from the list of bloodlines available to Sorcerers. They gain that bloodline’s arcana, which applies to both their arcane and divine spells, and that bloodline’s class skill. At third level, and every two levels thereafter, they add another bloodline spell to their spells known; these spells are treated as arcane spells.
A thaumaturge may select one of their bloodline’s powers in place of an oracle mystery, as long as their oracle level is equal to or higher than the level at which a sorcerer would have been granted that bloodline power. They use their oracle level in place of their sorcerer level for determining the effects of bloodline powers. Any spells known gained as bloodline spells or through bloodline powers are not included when determining if the thaumaturge knows more arcane spells than divine.
Thaumaturgic Revelations
All thaumaturge oracles have access to the following revelations, regardless of what mystery they choose.
Armored Caster: You can now cast arcane spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. You still incur the normal arcane spell failure chance wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or a shield, and for arcane spells received from other classes if the spell in question has a somatic component. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.
Spell Synthesis: You gain Spell Synthesis, as the Mystic Theurge class feature. Instead of using spells from different spellcasting classes, you must cast one arcane and one divine spell with this ability. You must be at least 15th level to select this revelation.
Theurgy: You gain Theurgy as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites. Instead of sacrificing spell slots, you may use the abilities granted by the feat a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier. You must be at least 3rd level to select this revelation.
And, because my plans for the evening fell through, you get my take on an archetype to replicate a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge, one that prepares their spells rather than casting them spontaneously. This one has more packed into it than the Thaumaturge due to the need for both Intelligence and Wisdom as casting stats. As always, commentary, critique, criticism, etcetera, is appreciated.
-----
Theurgist (Wizard Archetype)
A theurgist is someone who has devoted themselves both to the study of magic and worship of a god. As pious as any priest, a theurgist wields their considerable powers in the name of their deity.
Alignment: A theurgist's alignment must be within one step of their deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis.
Weapon Proficiency: A theurgist is proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the favored weapon of their deity. This alters the theurgist's weapon proficiencies.
Aura: A theurgist of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see detect evil for details).
Spells: A theurgist casts arcane spells drawn from the Wizard spell list and divine spells drawn from the Cleric spell list. A theurgist must choose and prepare their spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast an arcane spell, the theurgist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a theurgist's arcane spell is 10 + the spell level + the theurgist's Intelligence modifier. Armor interferes with a theurgist's movements, which can cause their arcane spells with somatic components to fail.
To learn, prepare, or cast a divine spell, the theurgist must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a theurgist's divine spell is 10 + the spell level + the theurgist's Wisdom modifier.
A theurgist can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Their base daily spell allotment is that of a wizard of their level. In addition, they receive bonus spells per day if they have a high Intelligence score or a high Wisdom score. Bonus spells gained through high Intelligence must be used to prepare arcane spells and bonus spells gained through Wisdom must be used to prepare divine spells.
A theurgist begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard and cleric spells (except any arcane spells from their opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) and a single 1st-level wizard or cleric spell of their choice. The theurgist also selects a number of additional 1st-level wizard spells equal to their Intelligence modifier and additional 1st-level cleric spells equal to their Wisdom modifier to add to the spellbook. At any time, a theurgist can also add spells learned from other clerics or found in other wizards' spellbooks to their own.
Theurgists perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new theurgist level, they gain an arcane spell and a divine spell of their choice to add to their spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels they can cast.
Any spell that appears on both the Cleric and the Wizard spell list may be learned as either an arcane or a divine spell, depending on the method of acquisition; spells learned from wizard spellbooks or arcane scrolls are learned as arcane spells, and spells learned from divine casters or divine scrolls are learned as divine spells.
This ability replaces the Spells feature.
Bonus Languages: A theurgist's bonus language options include Draconic, Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal. These choices are in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of their race.
Arcane Bond: A theurgist who selects a bonded object must choose either their deity's favored weapon or a holy symbol of their deity as their chosen item; treat a holy symbol as an amulet.
This ability alters the arcane bond feature.
Spontaneous Casting: A theurgist gains Spontaneous Casting, as the cleric class feature. The spell they lose in order to convert it to a cure or inflict spell must be a prepared divine spell.
Arcane School: A theurgist's school spell slots can only be used to prepare arcane spells of their specialty school. Additionally, see the Domain feature below.
This ability alters the arcane school feature.
Domain: A theurgist chooses one domain from amongst those belonging to their deity, as the cleric's Domains ability. They automatically add each of the domain's spells to their spellbook at the appropriate level. A theurgist's domain spell slots may only be used to memorize these domain spells as divine spells. In addition, the theurgist may choose to replace one of their arcane school powers with a domain power of equivalent level, using their theurgist level in place of their cleric level.
Bonus Feats: In place of Scribe Scroll or one of the bonus feats gained at every 5th level, a theurgist may instead choose to gain Channel Energy, as the cleric class feature. They use their theurgist class level in place of their cleric level, except that the damage dealt or healed remains at 1d6 points of damage regardless of their level. They may choose this feature multiple times; each time they do, they increase the damage dealt or healed by an additional 1d6 points of damage.
Spellbooks: In order to add a divine spell to their spellbook, a theurgist must succeed at a Spellcraft check and pay the same cost as though adding an arcane spell of equal level to their spellbook. A theurgist may learn a Cleric spell from a divine caster who has it prepared as though they were copying a spell from a spellbook.
|
Hey there!
For a different option on playing such a class, you might check out the theurge base class in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press.
No need to create an archetype! :)
Hey there!
For a different option on playing such a class, you might check out the theurge base class in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press.
No need to create an archetype! :)
I was able to take a look at this class, and it seems like we had a lot of the same ideas; to the point where I'm almost kind of wondering if I've seen it before and had forgotten about it; my theurgist is very very similar to the theurge base class.
|
|
Hey everyone! Just wanted to let you know the Expanded and Updated New Paths Compendium Hardcover is now available right here on Paizo.com!!
Expanded and Updated New Paths Compendium Hardcover
Includes the Theurge plus 11 other new classes (plus archetypes, spells, feats, and more)