Hey all! I'm new to the game and i had a question. How do you calculate EL? I can't figure it out.
For exampl what would the EL be for a five CR 2 orcs if the part yis four 3rd levl characters? Colud some one help with the fromula for figureing ELs?
(Edit: Opps, this has been corrected due to Lilith's post below.)
You only need EL to determine what kind of challenge the pary will face, not to calculate experience. For experience you can just award 5 times the XP for a CR2 orc.
The general rule is two equal CR opponents are equal to one opponent at CR+2. So, for your CR2 orcs, two of them are considered the same as a EL4, and four would be equal to a EL6. Unfortunately you have 5, that means it's equivalent to a EL6 and a EL2, which you could call either EL6 or EL7. I'd round it down to EL6, but the calculator Lilith mentions below is showing EL7. Either way, it's a very difficult encounter for 4 3rd level characters.
Irksome, d20srd.org has an Encounter Calculator that's just what you need (and it's an EL of 7, if you're curious - "Very Difficult").
Irksome, d20srd.org has an Encounter Calculator that's just what you need (and it's an EL of 7, if you're curious - "Very Difficult").
I use these types of calculators all the time, but for those that code this stuff what is the actual equation? It's more important, in my opinion, when determining total party level for determining the XP reward for a specific CR monster. I have a whole hodge-podge of levels in a 6 character party, and if it weren't for these calculators, I'd have no idea what the effective party level was.
So, anyone have a good algorithm they can show me?
Thanks,
Greg
I use these types of calculators all the time, but for those that code this stuff what is the actual equation? It's more important, in my opinion, when determining total party level for determining the XP reward for a specific CR monster. I have a whole hodge-podge of levels in a 6 character party, and if it weren't for these calculators, I'd have no idea what the effective party level was.
I'm not sure what you are asking here.
EL is, as explained above, usually increased by 2 for each doubling of the foes. When mixing different CRs together it can be a little strange. In that case I often treat individual EL of the groups as CR.
So let's say you had 4 CR 3 creatures and 2 CR 5 creatures in an encounter. Well 4 CR 3 = EL 7 (2 doublings) and 2 CR 5 = EL 7 (1 doubling). So I treat it as 2 CR 7, thus EL 9. Of course foes whose individual CR is more than six lower than the average party level isn't really a challenge anymore.
If you are asking how to calculate the average party level, generally you just kind of average them. For example, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7 -> average = 5.5 so maybe a slightly underpowered group might be considered 5, but a higher power one might be considered 6. Now one thing to be careful of, you don't really want to calculate some kind of "effective party level" based on having more or less PCs than 4. That can be very misleading. Instead you should calculate the number of foes for a party of four and then scale that number by how many PCs you have. So for example 2 CR 4 foes would be good for a standard 6th level party. For a party size of six, you would increase the number of foes by 50%, so send 3 CR 4 foes at them.
If you are asking how to calculate the average party level, generally you just kind of average them. For example, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7 -> average = 5.5 so maybe a slightly underpowered group might be considered 5, but a higher power one might be considered 6. Now one thing to be careful of, you don't really want to calculate some kind of "effective party level" based on having more or less PCs than 4. That can be very misleading. Instead you should calculate the number of foes for a party of four and then scale that number by how many PCs you have. So for example 2 CR 4 foes would be good for a standard 6th level party. For a party size of six, you would increase the number of foes by 50%, so send 3 CR 4 foes at them.
Not really what I'm asking. Basically, if you have a CR 13 creature, going up against a party of say a 15th, a 14th, 2 13th, and 2 12th level PCs what is the XP award? I need to find a "party level" to find out how much XP to award. You can't just average for the following reason:
The average of what I wrote above is 13: (15+14+2*13+2*12)/6 = 13.2. But that isn't the party strength, and here's why. Let say there were originally 4 PCs in the party, they were 15, 14, 13 and 13. The average party level here is 13.75 or 14, say. By adding two more PCs, the strength of the party goes down to 13? That doesn't make sense. How does adding 2 PCs make the power level of the party go down? Even if they are weaker PCs, there are still 6, instead of 4, so the total power level of the party went up. But if I just average, then 6 PCs get more total XP for the encounter than 4. Granted they are parcelled out into smaller amounts, but still, the total XP award for the 6 PCs should be less than for the 4, not more.
See my point?
So the question is, what is the "EL" of this 6 PC party? Or rather, how do you calculate it? You can't use the 2x = CR+2 equation here, because I'm not trying to get encounter levels, I want an "effective party level". Now the srd encounter calculator does this calculation (that's what I use) but I'm curious as to the how, not the what.
Greg
Not really what I'm asking. Basically, if you have a CR 13 creature, going up against a party of say a 15th, a 14th, 2 13th, and 2 12th level PCs what is the XP award? I need to find a "party level" to find out how much XP to award. You can't just average for the following reason:
You don't need the party level to work out their experience. In fact the party level is irrelevant in terms of XP. Each individual character gets their own experience.
Using your encounter as the example the XP would be awarded as follows.
Both 12th level characters get:
5400 (EL 12 characters vs. CR 13 monster from p.39 of the DMG)
/6 (total number of players in the party)
= 900 XP
The two 13th level characters get:
3900/6 = 650 XP
The 14th level character got:
2800/6 = 466 XP (round down)
The 15th level character got:
2250/6 = 375 XP
Notice the big effect here is that the lower level characters are earning more XP per encounter then their higher level brethren. Given time they'll close the gap in levels. Essentially the table is self correcting for differences in party levels given enough time.
I set up my own spreadsheet that calculates it. Basically, the calculation of EL is a logarithm that determines the exponent of the base 2 required to equal the number of CR 1/2 opponents equivalent to the additive values of the individual CRs of the members of the encounter.
Did that make sense?
I understand basically what you are saying, but can you give me the actual equation? (Don't worry, equations don't scare me - I've got a Master's in Physics. :-)
Greg
You don't need the party level to work out their experience. In fact the party level is irrelevant in terms of XP. Each individual character gets their own experience.
Using your encounter as the example the XP would be awarded as follows.
Both 12th level characters get:
5400 (EL 12 characters vs. CR 13 monster from p.39 of the DMG)
/6 (total number of players in the party)
= 900 XPThe two 13th level characters get:
3900/6 = 650 XPThe 14th level character got:
2800/6 = 466 XP (round down)The 15th level character got:
2250/6 = 375 XPNotice the big effect here is that the lower level characters are earning more XP per encounter then their higher level brethren. Given time they'll close the gap in levels. Essentially the table is self correcting for differences in party levels given enough time.
This may be RAW, but I'm not really a big fan of this. I don't like how the lower levels get more XP than the higher levels. In fact, in a battle, its the higher levels that will do more work, generally, than the lower levels. I can see PC mutiny on the horizon when the lower levels get more XP for doing less. If I use a single "party" level, then everyone gets the same XP (total/6) and there's no argument.
greg
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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This may be RAW, but I'm not really a big fan of this. I don't like how the lower levels get more XP than the higher levels. In fact, in a battle, its the higher levels that will do more work, generally, than the lower levels. I can see PC mutiny on the horizon when the lower levels get more XP for doing less. If I use a single "party" level, then everyone gets the same XP (total/6) and there's no argument.
greg
I'm with you Greg. We do the same thing in our game.
This may be RAW, but I'm not really a big fan of this. I don't like how the lower levels get more XP than the higher levels. In fact, in a battle, its the higher levels that will do more work, generally, than the lower levels. I can see PC mutiny on the horizon when the lower levels get more XP for doing less. If I use a single "party" level, then everyone gets the same XP (total/6) and there's no argument.
greg
So you remove save-or-die effects? No level drains? No PCs do item crafting? Lossing a level sucks. It even sucks more if you are stuck in the way back forever. Giving lower level characters more xp means they will mostly catch back up with the party as a whole. If some players are throwing tantrums because someone weaker got more xp, tell them to grow up.
Anyway, if you really want to use some kind of "effective party level", well I guess you could devise something like the EL rules.
2 ECL 12 + 2 ECL 13 = level 12-13 party
1 ECL 14 (~2 ECL 12) + 1 ECL 15 (~2 ECL 13)
So basically you are doubling your level 12-13 party. So use 14-15 for the party.
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I set up my own spreadsheet that calculates it. Basically, the calculation of EL is a logarithm that determines the exponent of the base 2 required to equal the number of CR 1/2 opponents equivalent to the additive values of the individual CRs of the members of the encounter.
Did that make sense?
I understand basically what you are saying, but can you give me the actual equation? (Don't worry, equations don't scare me - I've got a Master's in Physics. :-)
Greg
While I'd like to take the credit, I didn't come up with the following. jthilo posted this a while ago. Mathematically it works. Not sure why, but as a formula it works pretty well.
Something I've never been terribly clear on (and one of the reasons that I don't award XP based on monster kills) is how to calculate the CR for a multi-creature encounter.I might be able to help you, if you're not intimidated by logarithms. :-)
As others have said, you award XP by CR, not EL. However, that doesn't help you figure out the EL of a mixed group of creatures. If you start with the principle that two creatures of CR n combine to form an EL n+2 encounter (from the DMG), you get (skipping some steps) a formula for computing the EL of an encounter with a CR x creature and a CR y creature:
EL(x,y) = 2 * log2{2^(x/2) + 2^(y/2)}
log2 = base 2 logarithm
^ = exponentiation
* = mutliplication
/ = divisionThis works for any number of CRs if you just extend the summation. For example, if you have four creatures of CR w, CR x, CR y, and CR z:
EL(w,x,y,z) = 2 * log2{2^(w/2) + 2^(x/2) + 2^(y/2) + 2^(z/2)}
At least, it works mathematically. For determining EL it starts to break down if you pound on it too hard. I suspect that some ELs are assigned ad hoc for large mixed groups.
HTH, HAND.
While I'd like to take the credit, I didn't come up with the following. jthilo posted this a while ago. Mathematically it works. Not sure why, but as a formula it works pretty well.
(Previous post didn't stick for some reason...)
Math, something I can dig into! Many thanks,
Greg
This may be RAW, but I'm not really a big fan of this. I don't like how the lower levels get more XP than the higher levels. In fact, in a battle, its the higher levels that will do more work, generally, than the lower levels. I can see PC mutiny on the horizon when the lower levels get more XP for doing less. If I use a single "party" level, then everyone gets the same XP (total/6) and there's no argument.greg
Well personally I love the fact that lower level players catch up and I'd actually have a mutiny if I removed that. I kill them maybe a little to often, hence they need something that reassures them that they won't be far behind everyone else forever.
However there is a pretty easy system to give out base XP if thats what you want.
Notice that in the DMG all creatures have a bolded XP value at the point when the CR of a creature is equal to the level of character. Why not just treat all creatures as having that bolded number for XP all of the time? So a bugbear is always worth the same XP no matter what the level of the party is. This way everyone gets the same XP and you don't have to do much math at all. Just divide the monsters XP by the number of people in the party and your done.
Personally the only way I can justify all the work I do to calculate XP is because I get a mechanic that boosts lower level players faster then higher level ones. Otherwise why go through all the effort? Better to just assign monsters base XP. As a side bonus the amount of numbers you need to look up drops dramatically - very soon you'll have the XP value memorized for most CRs and you'll be able to pretty much calculate you players XP nearly on the fly. You could probably give it to them after 5 minutes worth of calculation at the end of the session and most of that time was spent tallying up all the dead monsters.
In Unearthed Arcana, there is a system for presenting consistent XP values as opposed to a sliding scale based on a creature's CR.
However there is a pretty easy system to give out base XP if thats what you want.
I understand where you're going, but I like the idea of monsters being worth less XP as the party gets higher in level. I just want to be able to represent the party's level - if that's possible. I just prefer it that way. Lower level characters may get less XP than if the whole party was the same level, but then, lower level characters would have a much harder time of it as well. It kinda balances out in my mind.
Greg
However there is a pretty easy system to give out base XP if thats what you want.I understand where you're going, but I like the idea of monsters being worth less XP as the party gets higher in level. I just want to be able to represent the party's level - if that's possible. I just prefer it that way. Lower level characters may get less XP than if the whole party was the same level, but then, lower level characters would have a much harder time of it as well. It kinda balances out in my mind.
Greg
I see your point - though I'll note that handing out Base XP does somewhat accomplish that. 300 XP is worth a lot more at low levels when you only need a dew thousand to go up a level then it is when you need 13,000 more to go up a level.