Hi!
I am DMing a
Human rogue (swashbuckler, pistol and dagger)
Human cleric1 /sorcerer 2 (homebrew shadowmage)
Tiefling warlock (clockwork patron)
Halfling cleric (tempest, rapier and shield)
Wood Elf monk (4 elements)
Eladrin fighter 1/wizard 2 (homebrew brontomancer)
One player mentioned hiring a couple fighters to join the crew of their newly acquired airship (they're level 3).
6 vs. 1 is proving to be challenging when it comes to dealing with the action economy disparity. They took out a level 6 wizard in round (even though the wizard got a surprise round, but lost initiative).
I'm concerned about balancing encounters. 8 vs. 1 action economy is horrible. Also, using higher CR critters in 5th Edition can lead to lots of one-shot kills of PCs, which I want to avoid. I know several lower CR critters is the way to go, but what's the best way to do it?
One CR appropriate with a bunch of minions? A couple CR appropriates? A bunch of lower CRs? I know mixing up types of encounters is ideal.
I want to challenge my PCs without killing them. Using CR +1 or +2 can be really swingy.
Any guidance?
I can't pretend any real authority, but my impression so far is that more monsters than PCs (most of a low CR) is harder than if the party outnumbers the monsters (even if the CRs are boosted). So for tough fights against such a large party, I think I'd use one significant threat and many minions rather than a few CR-appropriate enemies. It means they're incentivised to take out the big boss, but they're probably going to do that anyway and it's good to have at least one "heavy hitter" in any significant battle, in my opinion.
I'd definitely ditch the DMG guidelines for encounter design, I think the experience budgets they provide are terrible.
I just ran my group through a haunted house-style "dungeon" to get the party from 1st to 3rd. At 1st level, making encounter XP add up to 1.5 what a party of 4 could handle worked out OK, but this deteriorated at levels 2 and 3. It got really swingy and inconsistent.
I just ran my group through a haunted house-style "dungeon" to get the party from 1st to 3rd. At 1st level, making encounter XP add up to 1.5 what a party of 4 could handle worked out OK, but this deteriorated at levels 2 and 3. It got really swingy and inconsistent.
I found they really underestimated PC power at higher levels. My first campaign I ran using the experience point budgets from the DMG and anything other than "deadly" was hardly worth playing out (and those didn't deserve their moniker). This was for 2 PC party and a 4PC party - I can only imagine it gets worse for six or eight.
Like you, i found the guidelines okay at low levels, but overall I've just moved to DM judgement when I'm building encounters myself.
Legendary and lair actions are obviously useful in single-enemy encounters too.
I don't like to make those too common though. By keeping them rare there's a certain frisson of excitement when the enemy starts acting after each PC. It kind of telegraphs that "this battle is significant".
Yeah, it sounds like I need to up my minion game.
How about legendary actions for your solo enemies?
Here are a few ideas i've had to make guidelines for quick application of legendary actions to existing statblocks:
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First off, the creature gets 3 uses of Legendary Resistance and 3 Legendary actions per round, as is typical for Legendary foes.
As for specific Legendary Action options, consider what your Villain/Monster can do, and choose 3 out of these that fit your NPC's/monster's abilities.
- Cantrip. If the creature has spellcasting, it casts a cantrip.
- Minor Attack. If the creature has a multiattack, it makes a single attack out of those (if one of those attacks is significantly stronger than others, use one of the less powerful attacks) or another single attack available to it which is roughly equal in power. If it does not have multiattack with 3 or more attacks, it instead makes a single unarmed strike. The unarmed strike uses its proficiency bonus to attack and STR or DEX modifier, depending on which is higher, to attack and damage. If the creature is large, it deals 1d4 damage, if it is huge 2d4 damage and if it is gargantuan 4d4 damage.
- Major Attack (costs 2 actions). The creature makes a single attack listed in its actions which it cannot make as part of a multiattack.
- Special Action (costs 2 actions). The creature uses a special action available to it which it cannot use as part of other actions or as a bonus action with other actions.
- Move. The creature moves up to its speed (or up to half its flying speed) without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
- Detect.The creature makes a Wisdom (Perception) check.
- Maneuver. If the creature is proficient with Strength (Athletics), it makes a Shove or Grapple attack.
- Parting Blow (Costs 2 Actions). The creature makes a single melee attack (as per Minor Attack) and moves up to its speed without provoking opportunity attacks from the target of the attack.
- Wing Attack (Costs 2 Actions). If the creature is huge or larger and uses wings to fly, it beats its wings. Each creature within 10 feet must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw (DC 8 + creature's proficiency bonus + creature's Strength modifier) or take 2d6 + STR bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The creature can then fly up to half its flying speed.
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For example a legendary Cyclops could gain the following
Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If the cyclops fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.
LEGENDARY ACTIONS
The cyclops can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The cyclops regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.
- Move. The cyclops moves up to its speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
- Unarmed strike. The cyclops makes an unarmed strike: Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d4 + 6) bludgeoning damage.
- Rock (Costs 2 Actions). The cyclops throws a rock.
I want Legendary encounters to be special. Maybe once per session (we usually play for 6 hours once a month or so).
But maybe even the mini-bosses should be Legendary, especially against 6 PCs. Something to balance the action economy.
The 6th level wizard I put against the PCs was an enchantment specialist, so he had 3 different Reactions:
1. 6th level Enchantment ability (re-direct attack)
2. Shield
3. Counterspell
He used Counterspell against the 2nd of 6 PCs. He used Lucky in round 1 to undo a PC crit--with Guiding Bolt!
Maybe the big NPCs should get more Reactions? And definitely more hit points. I tried building him like a PC (which I now know is a Huge Mistake). Just now I realized I was putting 6 HD against 18 HD, and d6s at that!
No existential threat per se. They just cleared out an abandoned mansion in the city, so they're working on cleaning it up. They also discovered an airship, so they're trying to get funds to fix it up so they can use it to use a treasure map they found.
It's a steampunk ex-colonial city on a Bronze Age/Stone Age post-apocalyptic continent of jungles and glaciers, the apocalypse dealing with Cthulu-like elder things from beyond the depths of the seas.
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Of course legendary encounters should have a special place, but most solo monster encounters are more or less boss fights, so adding some legendary actions to them is a good idea against a large party.
It doesn't have to be a creature of legendary repute either, you can just see it as a mechanical adjustment to your party size.
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If things are getting especially lovecraftian, I would play up the investigation bits, make combat not focus on needing a tank at all (make the threats less about dealing HP damage, if you can), and maybe obviate the need for minions, or make their actions be supportive, as in Out of the Abyss. Also consider running encounters with mobs, as suggested by the DMG. I forget if you have that book or not.
I find that one of the greatest departures in 5e from 4e is that the roles are less important. You can have a group without a caster or healing or tank or whatever. Heck, with 6 players, it seems like they may just need to either kill things quickly, and/or try to revive any downed party members, or heck, play smarter. I presume as well that they will have tank tricks as they progress, like being able to summon creatures or have access to things like crowd control spells that will minimize the need for tanks.
Failing all of that, see if anyone might benefit from a magic item that allows them to act as a tank. Even just giving someone an item that confers damage resistance to weapon attacks instantly gives them twice the HP and makes them more sturdy without necessarily making them unkillable, and does not fiddle any further with action economy. Alternately, you could instead have a magic item that gives a chunk of temporary HP at the start of every battle.
The monk and fighter/wizard are good candidates.
The party does have a custom magic item that can cast Heroism--at 6th level if needed. But it also has other uses: Divine Favor and/or Magic Weapon.
I don't think they need a tank, but some party members do.
I never played 4th. I have the DMG, PH, MM, Volo, and Tome of Beasts. So I have lots of different monsters to use, and I'm not afraid to put homebrew monsters against the PCs.
Yeah, I'm not too worried, especially since the wizard took a level of fighter at 1st level--which I wasn't expecting!
And the "shadow mage" has an initial level of cleric, so a few extra hit points, armor, and weapon options.
He's a homebrew brontomancer (specializing in thunder and lightning and other weather spells).
A couple levels of fighter are really great--free Quicken Spell!
I wonder if Sorcerer or Wizard or Bard is better? Abjurer is pretty awesome all on its own, especially with Mountain Dwarf shenanigans.
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I found more monsters to be more fun for the party all round than more powerful monsters.
Me too, but sometimes "the story" needs a single monster, like when a lone wizard is sneaking around a lost library.
More monsters mean more options, even if it's just the fun of hitting multiple targets with an AoE ability or choosing to hit the one on the left, as opposed to the one on the right.
Lone monsters might consider fleeing when vastly outnumbered, to return for a fairer fight.
If they last 1 round!!! :-P
The wizard I ran was "designed" to escape: A bunch of mobility-enhancing and battlefield control spells, some defensive magic, and only magic missile and some cantrips for offensive magic, besides stuff like sleep and crown of madness and charm person.
I opened up with a salvo of magic missiles: one for each PC, just to scare them. Oops.
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I think that 5e is not really balanced for solo monsters. At least not RAW.
Really, a solo monster needs max HP, more action economy built in, and maybe some ablative defenses. I've been toying with some comprehensive rules that are solo but not legendary creature level.
But do also consider environmental effects, like having the terrain or environment work against the players too, like fighting an aboleth in deep water, etc.
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More like double max hit points.... ;-)
My DMing experience so far is limited, but at least against 4 players single monsters can work well. I recently started my campaign and first session had a battle against a single minotaur and later single otyugh. In both cases the party (arcane trickster, devotion paladin, barbarian/moon druid, shadow monk; all level 3) was fully rested. Aside from the otyugh whiffing a lot of attack rolls (i believe in 3 multiattack actions it hit once with a single tentacle) both encounters felt fairly balanced. Each lasted a few rounds and ended up with the party coming out on top. The minotaur actually managed to drop a player to 0 (the paladin no less, with the highest HP and AC in the party)
I can see how this falls apart at larger numbers of characters in the party, and I don't know how much characters increase in power level compared to monsters, but i've heard that higher CR monsters are generally overrated when compared to the power of a supposedly level appropriate party.
Considering that the monster CRs are, according to the books, supposed to mark the level of a four-character-party which would have a neither particularly dangerous, nor completely trivial encounter against that monster, and the encounter building rules do include the changes to an encounter's difficulty created by the improved action economy of multiple creatures, I do believe the game was inteded to be balanced for solo monsters. On top of that, both monsters and PCs tend to much more quickly increase in hit points than in damage output. The intention seems clear to me, only the outcome does not match.
I think it can be pretty swingy. I think there is a monster in Volo that has 2 attacks, one is 4d10+, and it's only CR 5.
I think some monsters are pretty obviously meant to be encountered in groups (particularly the ones with Pack Tactics!), but some are meant to be solo monsters (particularly the ones with Legendary Actions!).
Can Legendary Actions go after an ally's turn? Just thought of that now.
The only other extensive 5th Edition campaign I've been in was a conversion of RotRL, and we stopped at level 13/14. We took out Karzaug while 13th level. I think the PF equivalent is 16 or so? But there were 6 of us...
Yes, legendary actions can be used "at the end of another creature's turn". No specifications on allies, enemies or otherwise.
I very much want to post exactly how a 6th level Mage defeats a party of 3rd level characters, but in the interest of survival (I play the swashbuckler Cirrus Marlowe), I must abstain ;)
It's called winning initiative! :-P
If each PC can do 8 points of damage, on average, they're going to kill something with 6 Hit Dice if they beat its initiative.
Also, now everything is going to have double to triple maximum hit points.
The shadowmage is gonna be pissed!!!!
You know, I wouldn't use pc classes as encunters anyway. Especially not mages. They don't have the hit points to last mre than a round. Build them as npcs and give them whichever class's spellcasting they should have. You can also add the appropriate class features.
A lot of monsters have much more hit points than damage output per round, and for good reason. If they are meant to stand up to a group of pcs and make for a fight that lasts more than one round, that is what is necessary. PCs have a much more solid damage potential compared to their own number of HP. An otyugh for example has 114 hp and deals an average of 26 damage (or 32 if it is grappling two creatures), assuming every attack is a hit. IT also stuns, reducing the enemies' damage output. So it would need 4 rounds to kill another otyugh, probably more because it is also going to miss a couple of swings. A pc, an arcane spellcaster in particular, is generally on the side of high damage and low hp, so a battle cannot last very long. So you need to divorce its spellcasting from its hit dice in order to make an engaging combat encounter out of it.
One of two reasons why i don't use PC classes for enemy npcs in my 5e games.
I just added 6 HD of cleric and 6 HD of wizard to an 8 HD monster, and I think it's only around CR 5 or so.
I just need to break my bad PF habits and just load up on hit points.
by hd you mean 6 levels worth of spellcasting? You need to keep in mind that their spellslots stack into a single pool so even if both only learn 3rd level spells they should be able to cast them at 6th level, and that should factor into their damage per round, as well as AC and hit points if they have defense or control spells.
Yeah, 20d8+20X hit points, 6th level spell slots, and a (hopefully) fun spell selection that has fun upgrades without TPKing.
Yeah, I like Legendary Actions. I'll probably use them in more solo encounters. I also like the Commander idea. Or maybe an Alpha bossing its minions around, too.
You weren't kidding about that prose. I need to take a shower now.
But I like the idea of combining 2 creature mechanics into one boss. I'll have to try it out.