I am interested in crafting a heavy shield out of adamantine, and there is a dispute between my GM and me about the cost.
As I understand it, the breakdown is like this:
Base item: Heavy steel shield, 20 gp
Special material: Adamantine, +3000 gp, shield uses the weapon price for the material
Total = 3,020 x 1/3 price for crafting it myselfSo the final cost of the shield to me would be 1,066 gp 6 sp 7 cp
My GM is saying that the 3,000 gp cost of adamantine is a material cost which is not affected by the crafting discount. Is there anything in the rules to support his argument? Am I wrong in thinking that I should be able to craft this at the normal 1/3 price rate? I'd never heard such an argument before and none of the other threads I found searching this board seemed to even consider the idea that the material cost WOULDN'T be factored into the crafting reduction.
Thank you for any help you folks are able to provide on this
Where do you get the idea that crafting an item by yourself is 1/3rd of the price? It's at least one half, and if your GM rules that adamantine is harder to get than normal he is easily justifed in cranking the cost up.. The proper way to do so would be to adjust the base price of the item to fit your world's conditions.
You are correct. Your GM is in error.
If he wants in-world reasons, it's because the 3000 gp for an adamantine weapon is more for the difficulty crafting it than for the raw metal.
Where do you get the idea that crafting an item by yourself is 1/3rd of the price? It's at least one half, and if your GM rules that adamantine is harder to get than normal he is easily justifed in cranking the cost up.. The proper way to do so would be to adjust the base price of the item to fit your world's conditions.
Mundane item crafting is 1/3. Magic item crafting is 1/2. An adamantine item is a mundane item, so the cost to make is 1/3.
Thanks, my real dilemma now is like... how do I prove a negative here? The rule is that it's this way, and there's not really a dispute to the contrary, so no sources exist to comment on the rule because it's one that's very clear and hasn't been challenged like this. I'm kind of at a loss on that front.You are correct. Your GM is in error.
If he wants in-world reasons, it's because the 3000 gp for an adamantine weapon is more for the difficulty crafting it than for the raw metal.
Hmm. You could point out that the 3000 adamantine cost is so much larger than the cost of the base weapon that a crafter would make diddly-squat profit on them if they had to buy 3000 gp of adamantine instead of 1000.
That is, if you're making a 30 gp (base) weapon of adamantine, it should cost a professional 1010 for raw materials, they sell it for 3030 and make a handsome 2020/3030 = 67% profit, which is good because it takes them forever to make. If it instead costs 3010 for raw materials they make a profit of 20 gp / 3010 = .66% in, again, a very long time. Not economical. If they want a 20 gp profit they can make a non-adamantine weapon for 10 gp and sell it for 30 in much, much less time.
I say "a professional" because NPC pros get to sell stuff at full price, whereas PCs sell at half price. More importantly, if you were crafting magic items you'd pay half price for materials and sell at half price and make no profit at all, whereas a pro will, again, sell at full price and make plenty of profit. So in the general case you have to look at the pros if you want to consider economics.
Hope that made sense.
EDIT: More succinctly: A pro making non-special-material stuff makes a 67% profit on their initial investment. It is therefore not worth their while to make anything with less than 67%, which means special materials must have at least the same discount as regular stuff or nobody would ever make them.
Thanks, my real dilemma now is like... how do I prove a negative here? The rule is that it's this way, and there's not really a dispute to the contrary, so no sources exist to comment on the rule because it's one that's very clear and hasn't been challenged like this. I'm kind of at a loss on that front.
Trade goods can be sold at full cost, and metals are trade goods. Technically, the table of trade goods in the Core Rulebook lists only iron, copper, silver, gold, and platinum, but that might be because the list does not mention rare goods.)
Selling Treasure
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
Adamantine is a metal and therefore a trade good. If an adamantine dagger costs 3020 gp because it contains 3000 gp of adamantine metal, then it must sell for at least 3000 gp. Would your GM want your character to sell his adamantine weapons for that much? On the other hand, if the adamantine dagger contained only 1000 gp of adamantine, selling it for the usual half price of 1510 gp makes sense.
From the SRD entry on craft:
To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the item's DC from Table: Craft Skills.
Pay 1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost.
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week's worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.)
If the result × the DC doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
It's 1/3rd that goes to the raw material cost. You also have other costs in addition to that material cost, which add up to half the price.
Adamantine is a metal and therefore a trade good. If an adamantine dagger costs 3020 gp because it contains 3000 gp of adamantine metal, then it must sell for at least 3000 gp. Would your GM want your character to sell his adamantine weapons for that much? On the other hand, if the adamantine dagger contained only 1000 gp of adamantine, selling it for the usual half price of 1510 gp makes sense.
This reasoning doesn't hold up with selling back regular, non-special material metal weapons/armor for 50%.
It's 1/3rd that goes to the raw material cost. You also have other costs in addition to that material cost, which add up to half the price.From the SRD entry on craft:
To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the item's DC from Table: Craft Skills.
Pay 1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost.
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week's worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.)
If the result × the DC doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
No you don't. Half cost is only for magical items. Non-magiacal items are only 1/3 cost. You keep saying different, but have yet to cite your source. Do so.
It's 1/3rd that goes to the raw material cost. You also have other costs in addition to that material cost, which add up to half the price.From the SRD entry on craft:
To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the item's DC from Table: Craft Skills.
Pay 1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost.
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week's worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.)
If the result × the DC doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
The "other costs in addition to that material cost, which add up to half the price" part isn't supported anywhere in the rules for mundane crafting.
This reasoning doesn't hold up with selling back regular, non-special material metal weapons/armor for 50%.Adamantine is a metal and therefore a trade good. If an adamantine dagger costs 3002 gp because it contains 3000 gp of adamantine metal, then it must sell for at least 3000 gp. Would your GM want your character to sell his adamantine weapons for that much? On the other hand, if the adamantine dagger contained only 1000 gp of adamantine, selling it for the usual half price of 1501 gp makes sense.
EDIT: Price of dagger corrected above.
The reason I tell my players for the price difference between buying and selling is that if they want to set up a storefront and wait several months for an interested buyer to stop by, then I will let them sell their loot at full price. They have to sell at half price because they are selling to a merchant gambling that he will be able to resell it at full price quickly enough to pay his overhead expenses.
This reason does not change between regular items and special-material items. Sure, one could immediately sell a 3002-gp adamantine dagger for the 1000 gp of adamantine in it, but that is still less than selling it for 1501 gp to a merchant who will try to sell it for its full price to a rich fighter. Or sell a 2-gp ordinary dagger for the 6 sp of steel, wood, and leather in it, or sell a 22-gp alchemical silver dagger for the 6 gp of silver in it. Half price is still more than the price of the materials in it, because the materials make up one third the price.