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Can an eagle fight with it's full attack (2 talons and a bite) while fighting from the ground? I'm assume yes, but it seems weird.
Yes, it can. Look up some videos of real-world eagles hunting snakes, you'll see them pinning down the snakes with their claws.
An eagle gets summoned to fight a creature on a cliff. The eagle is in the air and wants to make a full attack. A) Does it have to make a fly check to hover before it attacks? After it attacks? B) what happens if it fails said check?
Good question! The rules are a bit vague on when the check has to be made. However, it's much easier to patch up a failed check if you do it early in the turn.
We know that:
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.We also know that:
Try Again: Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage (see Environment).
So here's how it could go. The eagle wants to full attack, and decides to do so. Then, it goes to make a check to see if it can hover (DC 15). Let's say it fails, but by less than 5. It doesn't fall, but it has to do something else than hovering, or it can't remain flying. It's already full-attacked so it can't take a move action. However, it might be able to take a 5ft step, and use the "use less than half your speed" DC 10 option. If it succeeds at it, then it's good for this round. If it fails, then it's exhausted its options for remaining airborne.
So as you can see, having a high enough Fly skill to get a 10 even when rolling a 1 is good for full attacks, and always meeting the DC 15 means you also won't have to take 5ft steps that you don't want to (for example, when you don't want to leave a flanking position).
I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually use the fly skill. Stuff that flies... just flies. A human doesn't need to roll an acrobatics check when they walk, I've never seen the point in forcing a bird to do a fly check when it flies, or a fish to do a swim check when it swims. While I could get it for a creature that doesn't typically fly, such as a caster using the spell, the skill rules just feel needlessly complicated and I can't think of a single case where someone I played with wanted to do a fancy maneuver... it's almost always "I fly just high enough so that the melee enemies can't hit me".
I guess others might have different experiences than mine, though.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually use the fly skill. Stuff that flies... just flies. A human doesn't need to roll an acrobatics check when they walk, I've never seen the point in forcing a bird to do a fly check when it flies, or a fish to do a swim check when it swims. While I could get it for a creature that doesn't typically fly, such as a caster using the spell, the skill rules just feel needlessly complicated and I can't think of a single case where someone I played with wanted to do a fancy maneuver... it's almost always "I fly just high enough so that the melee enemies can't hit me".
I guess others might have different experiences than mine, though.
The checks are only needed when you try to something out of the ordinary. Fly checks aren't needed for normal flying, but hovering in one spot isn't normal for almost all flyers. Fish don't need a check to swim normally (the skill even says so), but one would be needed in special circumstances (like a salmon trying to swim up a waterfall).
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Fish are basically taking 10 all the time because their native swim speed allows them to, and they're good enough at it that a take 10 is sufficient. So nobody notices there's a "roll" happening at all.
Fly is a bit different because the skill allows you finer maneuverability, which some creatures lack because they're just that big and clumsy. Like dragons. Those often have trouble taking sharp turns, which means taking cover in complicated terrain can be a way to foil the dragons flyby strafe runs.
The checks are only needed when you try to something out of the ordinary. Fly checks aren't needed for normal flying, but hovering in one spot isn't normal for almost all flyers. Fish don't need a check to swim normally (the skill even says so), but one would be needed in special circumstances (like a salmon trying to swim up a waterfall).I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually use the fly skill. Stuff that flies... just flies. A human doesn't need to roll an acrobatics check when they walk, I've never seen the point in forcing a bird to do a fly check when it flies, or a fish to do a swim check when it swims. While I could get it for a creature that doesn't typically fly, such as a caster using the spell, the skill rules just feel needlessly complicated and I can't think of a single case where someone I played with wanted to do a fancy maneuver... it's almost always "I fly just high enough so that the melee enemies can't hit me".
I guess others might have different experiences than mine, though.
Sure, but "does it add anything to the game?" In my opinion, it detracts more than it adds.
And yes, I get the point about allowing clumsy flyers a chance to pull off fancy maneuvers. But simulating flight on a 2d mat in a turn-based game is atrocious to begin with. I mean, sure, if someone really, really wanted to do it, there are some rules there... but basically the only scenario I can think of where fancy maneuvers are required is a chase scene where everyone involved is flying at full speed through canyons, simulating an x-wing vs. tie fighter scene. And such a thing certainly doesn't fit on a typical mat/grid, so it'd involve a GM simply orating the scene, making the fine details impossible to measure and therefore just forcing arbitrary DCs.
In any case, with a bird trying to full-round, I'd say to hell with the rules and wouldn't ask a check myself. It slows down the game for nothing.
Sure, but "does it add anything to the game?" In my opinion, it detracts more than it adds.
And yes, I get the point about allowing clumsy flyers a chance to pull off fancy maneuvers. But simulating flight on a 2d mat in a turn-based game is atrocious to begin with. I mean, sure, if someone really, really wanted to do it, there are some rules there... but basically the only scenario I can think of where fancy maneuvers are required is a chase scene where everyone involved is flying at full speed through canyons, simulating an x-wing vs. tie fighter scene. And such a thing certainly doesn't fit on a typical mat/grid, so it'd involve a GM simply orating the scene, making the fine details impossible to measure and therefore just forcing arbitrary DCs.
In any case, with a bird trying to full-round, I'd say to hell with the rules and wouldn't ask a check myself. It slows down the game for nothing.
And that is fine. But as this is a rules question in the Rules Question forum, the by-the-rules answer should be the only thing discussed.
The only reason that Fly skill checks are rare in my game is that they consequences of failing them are sufficiently dire that most characters capable of flying only do things with it that they are guaranteed to succeed at -- but I definitely compare Fly skill DCs with my Fly skill bonus before deciding whether to attempt any given maneuver.
An eagle (or any other flying critter) absolutely must succeed a DC 15 fly skill check to hover in order to get its full attack.
If it fails by less than 5, it must move at least half its speed, which means it can only make a single attack before (or after) moving.
If it fails by 5 or more, it falls. Probably taking no damage, if it was flying at a height to attack a medium creature.
With only a +8 fly skill, it could easily fail this check. On a raw roll of 1 it falls. On a roll of 2-6 it can only take a single attack, then must fly away at least at half speed.
Those are the rules. If a given DM wishes to ignore them for natural fliers like eagles, fine. But it's not RAW.
Its not that hard, you just have to read the skill.
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.
For an eagle, it needs to move at least 45' with a fly move action, then it can remain flying without a check. If it moves 40' or less, then it moved equal or less than half its speed, and so a check is required. 5-35 feet is a DC 10 check. (Half speed isn't defined, move greater than lets you skip a check, and less than is a DC10, but if you move exactly half, its neither, so check with your GM if half counts as greater or less).
Hover (AKA not move) DC 15.
An eagle has a fly of +8, So the lowest roll it can make is a 9, which fails DC 14 by 5 of more. So an eagle that tries to hover, and rolls a 1 would plummet to the ground.
If the eagle 5 foot stepped, it only needs a DC10 check, which it cannot fail by more than 5. What is unclear is what happens when you fail a fly check, but less than 5. Maybe you don't remain flying, but you don't fail so badly you plummet. So do you just land without falling damage if you fail the fly check? That seems to be the most reasonable solution to me. Note, the eagle would only fail that check on a 1. (Move less than half speed and remain flying)
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I would say that you move through the following;
1) You could aim for no movement at all (DC 15), if you fail by less than 5, you have to pick another option that you haven't tied yet.
2) You could move at least 5ft but less than half (DC 10). If you fail by less than 5, you have to do something else.
3) You could move half or half+ your speed, and not need to roll.
If you fail at 1 and 2 but not too badly, but can't do 3 (for example, you already made a full attack, you overconfident person), then you can't remain flying. So I guess you plummet after all.
This is why it's safer to roll Fly checks first, so that you can still pick option 3 if all else fails. But sometimes getting in that attack matters more, or you don't want to give up your flanking position before attack rolls.
Given the fact that there's three attacks (probably on multiple birds) and your turn I am perfectly fine with the eagle getting a free hop in place to beak claw claw and getting on with the round.