Reach Evolution for Unarmed Strike?

[Abandoned Arts]

So one of my players is working with a rather unusual build: a monk / synthesist summoner build (with venerable age penalties to boot - and all penalties totally overriden by adopting the eidolon's physical ability scores).

She wants to be able to take the Reach evolution and apply it to her unarmed strikes - but her eidolon is a bipedal one, with claws. Unfortunately, taking a different eidolon form is somewhat out of the question in this case.

With all that in mind, my question is two-fold:

1.) Can an eidolon with claws (but no hands) make an unarmed strike? If not, does it matter that the eidolon is a synthesist form "worn" by a monk?

2.) Can an eidolon capable of making unarmed strikes select them as a candidate for the Reach evolution, or is that evolution intended for natural attacks only?

[Saethori]

Abandoned Arts wrote:

1.) Can an eidolon with claws (but no hands) make an unarmed strike? If not, does it matter that the eidolon is a synthesist form "worn" by a monk?

Yes. Unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body, not merely the fist. Attacks with elbows, knees, feet, and headbutts are all possible.

Quote:

2.) Can an eidolon capable of making unarmed strikes select them as a candidate for the Reach evolution, or is that evolution intended for natural attacks only?

The evolution definitely isn't for natural attacks, as eidolons have been gaining reach on manufactured weapons for some time.

That said, it must be an attack the eidolon possesses, but everything possesses am unarmed strike, so I think this is fine.

[dragonhunterq]

Any creature can make unarmed strikes.
The reach evolution is intended for it's natural attacks.

As you appear to be allowing a synthesist with venerable age penalties (Why would you do that to yourself?) I see no reason why you wouldn't allow this either though.

[Abandoned Arts]

dragonhunterq wrote:

As you appear to be allowing a synthesist with venerable age penalties (Why would you do that to yourself?) I see no reason why you wouldn't allow this either though.

I try to strike a balance between RAW and RAI, but I don't deviate from either if I can help it. I want to know what the rules are, not what I can "allow." I try not to "allow" anything - I'll let the rules do all the allowing.

dragonhunterq wrote:

The reach evolution is intended for it's natural attacks.

I suspect that this is not necessarily the case, since the language for most other evolutions does specify "natural attacks" where applicable. I doubt it is meant to apply to manufactured weapons, but the language used in this evolution might be different from the rest explicitly because the designer(s) anticipated that some eidolons might want to use unarmed fighting styles, feats, and so on.

The question might be: can a biped with claws make a natural attack? Does it need hands instead?

Can a badger make an unarmed strike? Can a bear? HeroLabs seems to think so, but HeroLabs can be awfully silly.

Saethori wrote:

Unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body, not merely the fist. Attacks with elbows, knees, feet, and headbutts are all possible.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but I'm not completely sure. The rules for unarmed attacks seem to indicate that such attacks are possible, but the monk's "unarmed strike" class feature explicitly states that a monk can attack with knees, elbows, and so on - which seems to imply (without explicitly saying so) that other characters cannot? Maybe?

Of course, the question might be moot since the eidolon in question shares a body with a monk, and is - in fact - not a separate creature.

It's a pretty wacky corner-case, I'm just hoping there's some scrap of rules-text out there that makes it crystal clear. There may not be, though.

[Kazaan]

Anything can make unarmed strikes. Even a slime with no arms or legs to speak of could make an unarmed strike (though, it's mechanically inferior to using its normal natural weapons). There are some that claim that the Monk unarmed strike entry is an exception that proves the rule, but I disagree. The description of Unarmed Strike in the Combat section of the rules already declares that punches, kicks, and headbutts are all Unarmed Strikes already and the FAQ on Magic Fang goes on to declare that your Unarmed Strike is your whole body and making an Unarmed Strike is agnostic to what body part you use. It "could" be a specific body part if you rely on a specific rules element like the necessity to use a hand-associated weapon in Spell Combat, but it could just as easily just be an abstract "unarmed strike" with no particular body part called out because it bears no mechanical significance. I would interpret the "knees, elbows, etc." line for Monks as supporting the "hands full" part and, as a conclusion, I'd say that a Monk, even without using Flurry of Blows, can make off-hand unarmed strikes even if using a two-handed weapon to make his main-hand attacks (in this interpretation, "hands full" is referring to his attack economy).

But, ultimately, given that it doesn't exclude other forms of attack nor restrict it exclusively to natural weapons, it's reasonable to conclude that the reach evolution can applies to any melee attack method available to you without exception. Same goes for other evolutions such as Bleed.

[Saethori]

The only thing that cares about what limb you use for Unarmed Strike is the unchained monk's Style Strike ability. Otherwise, anything is fair if you aren't using that part of your body.

Even something with no limbs can make one, by running into something forcefully. That's still definitely an attack with the body.

dragonhunterq wrote:

As you appear to be allowing a synthesist with venerable age penalties (Why would you do that to yourself?)

Because Synthesist Summoners completely overwrite one's physical stats with the eidolon's as long as the eidolon, which it will be at nearly all times he is in a place his physical stats matter, he gains the significant increase to his mental ability scores at only the cost of lowered natural HP, outside the temp HP buffer.