How many race points would deathless be?

[zaphod77]

This is from BoED and Eberron.

The differences between deathless and undead are.

1) deathless are powered by positive energy instead of negative. this has the following below effects.
2) Deathless are NOT immune to drain, but still immune to other effects requiring fortitude save, and to ability damage). (this is a disadvantage compared to undead)
3) deathless can be rebuked by those who channel positive energy, and harmed/turned by those who channel negative energy. this is overall a disadvantage, but only if the cleric can turn you. normal neg channeling channeling hurts you same as living. control by good NPCs isn't really too much of a disadvantage since good NPCs are bound by their alignment. :)
4) deathless are healed by positive energy, and harmed by negative. therefore they can receive normal healing jut fine. big advantage for PC.
5) spells that have extra effect on undead do not affect deathless differently. they have reduced vulnerability to searing light. advantage to pc vs undead for sure.
6) spells that specifically affect or create undead, (other then detection) except for detection do not affect deathless (animate dead, control undead, etc.). but there are deathless specific versions of those spells, with opposite alignment descriptors, which are known to your setting if deathless exist. There owuld, for exmaple be a separate invisibility to deathless spell, though i'd rule that normal invisibility works fine against them.

Are they the same RP? more RP?

The deathless type would seem to convert well to this system, but i can't figure out what RP the various component of the undead race are to estimate.

Also, how to i estimate the RP costs of stuff like "at will dimension door" (blink dog) and "no hands" (blink dogs again) or "pell always on"? am i to assume that if it's not listed, pcs cant' have it with the new system?

I'm well aware that certain spells are overpowered for their level in certain contexts. i expect that magic item cost would be a good idea to work out the RP.

[Cyrad]

Immunity to all Fortitude save effects would instantly make this a Monstrous Trait.

[My Self]

Wait...

You're seriously trying to stat something out using RP? There are easier ways to get inaccurate readings, like asking a toddler to gauge how scary it is.

Deathless would probably have a RP cost comparable to constructs. They have just as much in common to the living as the undead. The various specific resistances and bonuses are more or less equivalent to undead, while their broader immunities to certain saves are comparable to those of constructs and regular undead.

For 4th level spells, I'd probably look at the Drow Noble. It has a bunch of at-will spells for 16 RP total, including Dancing Lights, Deeper Darkness, Faerie Fire, Feather fall, and Levitate. So that's a 0th level spell, 2 1st level spells, a 2nd level spell, and a 3rd level spell for a combined 7 spell levels, plus the cantrip. I'd estimate that each 0th and 1st level spell at-will is 2 RP apiece, the 2nd level one is 4 RP, and the the 3rd level one is 6 RP. Following that logic, a 4th level spell would be 8 RP.

"No Hands" would be a crippling trait considering how handedness works in Pathfinder. It would effectively limit you to being a caster. Perhaps consider applying monstrous PC rules to this?

[zaphod77]

well, for example, darkvision is obviously 3 RP, since abberation race only comes with it.

low light vision itself is also similarly stated out (recall it being two).

This makes immunity to sleep and paralysis 5 RP. but a that point my figuring broke down.

So i was trying to stat out the rp costs of immunities, and rp breaks for qualities.

As for no hands, yeah, it cripples a lot of classes. but not ALL. (blink dog monk anyone?)

Deathless only "broader immunities" that they have that undead don't are towards undead specific stuff. which everything else is ALREADY immune to.

All cantrips are at will anyway in pathfinder. So i'd give them RP cost of 1, with level 1 at will of 2. Also need to work out similar guidelines for 1 and 3 time a day. RP cost would be less.

I do think deathless is better than undead for PCs, so cost should be higher. may still be undercosted at construct level because the inflict/heal reversal is a major penalty to undead as a PC. but then again turning by evil clerics sucks too.

I do think it would be useful to work out how to fit more abilities into the system though i understand why they are missing.

And i'm aware that at will makes certain spells (invisibility anyone?) more powerful then they should be. That's why the ring of invisibilty is more expensive then other rings of it's level. so i'd compare a normal magic item of the same cost as the unusually expensive item, and use it's spell level as the basis for the RP cost. 1 or 3/day invisibility would be normal RP cost for that class, since only at will invisibility is unusually powerful.

The monstrous pc rules of "CR as level" are quick and easy, but they also include the racial hit dice, and CR doesn't take into account PC utility for powers. While an ability may be worth a certain CR on a monster, it may be MORE useful on a PC. Blink dogs are a example. their blink and dimension door is a large part of their CR. But it could be abused better as a player character. I posted the example of the blink dog MONK with abundant step and dimensional dervish. MASTERS of hit and run. you thought spring attack was bad? Imagine teleporting while doing it. nah nah nah, you can't hit me and I can hit you...

Seems the way to go is simply houserule adjustment to monstrous PC rules when needed?

Oh. and cyclops insight power? VERY abusable on a PC. (it's the one that lets you flip your d20 to a 20 once per day) auto confirming a crit is nice. auto saving a difficult save or suck is nice.

[zaphod77]

Cyrad wrote:

Immunity to all Fortitude save effects would instantly make this a Monstrous Trait.

Except that undead already have that, and they ARE a race type.

[Cyrad]

The golden rule of PC race design is that a standard player race should not have abilities inappropriate for a 1st level character. This is true because a 1st level character gets all of the benefits of his race and Pathfinder is a game where PCs get their power from class levels rather than race. This is how the game works.

So giving something like an at-will 4th level spell as a racial trait would be utterly ridiculous unless you intend to create a race for high powered characters.

zaphod77 wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Immunity to all Fortitude save effects would instantly make this a Monstrous Trait.

Except that undead already have that, and they ARE a race type.

That's exactly why it would be a Monstrous Trait. Undead is a 16 RP creature type, making it impossible to create an undead race weaker than than Advanced tier. The proposed deathless trait stacks ontop of the race's creature type, therefore coming at less opportunity cost while also reaping many of the benefits of the undead type (like immunity to all hostile effects that allow Fortitude saves). The trait is also stronger than pretty much all of the Advanced Traits. Therefore, it should be Monstrous.