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I am doing some research on the kineticist and the specifically the Void Healer wild talent (Occult Orgins 7), and I have some questions and hypotheses regarding how it works by RAW. I didn't find anything conclusive from a cursory search, so if this has already been discussed in detail and I missed it, I apologize in advance, and ask to be pointed in the right direction.
Void Healer says that it...
functions as kinetic healer, except that it heals undead (and others healed by negative energy).and Kinetic Healer says that...
Instead of paying the burn cost yourself, you can cause the recipient to take 1 point of burn.
Q-1) This means that the kineticist can choose to either accept the burn or the recipient takes the burn, correct?
The Burn class feature says:
Nonlethal damage from burn can't be reduced or redirected, and a kineticist incapable of taking nonlethal damage can't accept burn.
Q-2) Does this also mean that they cannot be "forced to accept burn"? Such as because of a failed attempt to Gather Power (see below).
The Gather Power class feature says:If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it, she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild surge that forces her to accept a number of points of burn equal to the number of points by which her gathered power would have reduced the burn cost.
Here are some of my additional questions regarding the material presented above.
Q-3) Is there a difference between "accepting burn", "being forced to accept burn", and "taking burn"?Q-4) The burn class feature specifies kineticists, does this mean that a non-kineticist can accept/be forced to accept/take burn even if they are incapable of taking nonlethal damage?
Q-5) The Burn class feature specifies kineticists when discussing the number of points of burn you can accept. Does this limit also apply to non-kineticists?
Q-6) Does being healed by a kineticist other than yourself (using either Kinetic Healer or Void Healer) count as a "source outside [your] control" for the purpose of being able to accept/take the burn for them using this ability on you?
Q-7) If nonlethal damage from burn cannot be reduced, does a creature immune to nonlethal damage still take nonlethal damage from Burn if it somehow acquired burn?
My hypotheses, based upon a literal reading of the rules:
The hypothetical situation:
The character is a nameless Neutral Evil Human Chaokineticist 3/Cleric 3 Zombie Lord (with a total of 8 hit dice) refered to hereafter as the character. The character has used his clerical sells to animate a single Human Zombie (with a total of 2 hit dice) via Lesser Animate Dead. He currently controls a Human Fighter 1 Skeleton Champion (with a total of 3 hit dice) he encountered via the Control Undead feat (fueled by his ability to channel negative energy as a 3rd level cleric). He also has a Dhampir Chaokineticist 4 as his cohort as a result of taking the Vile Leadership feat (Ultimate Intrigue 135). The rest of the character's party is composed of boring 8th level neutral evil humans of various classes, but nobody cares about them anyway.
The hypothetical outcome:
The character definitely cannot accept burn; because as an undead he is immune to the non-lethal damage it would cause, and he has a class feature preventing him from accepting burn under that condition. I do not think that he can be forced to accept burn either, but I am unsure about this because:
A) The contradiction is of equal specificity, given that both clauses are located in class features of the same class and...
B) If an undead kineticist cannot be forced to accept burn, then Gather Power becomes an overpoweringly effective class feature for them because it has is no real penalty for failure. This is more than equal to the lose of access to utility talents which require accepting burn in my mind.
However I do think that the character can still take burn, because it isn't prohibited by the RAW; and prohibiting it would either significantly reduce or increase the effectiveness of Void Healer depending upon what happens when you attempt to force a creature that cannot take burn to take burn (see below).
Ignoring his ability to channel negative energy for the moment (perhaps because the character already used it all up for the day) the character can use the Void Healer wild talent on either the dhampir, the skeleton champion, or the zombie to heal them, but he cannot use it on himself because he can't accept the burn for doing so, moreover he must choose to have the dhampir, skeleton champion, or zombie take the burn (because he can't).
Neither the character, the skeleton champion, or the zombie are subject to nonlethal damage as a general rule of their creature types, however the specific rule in the class feature says that the nonlethal damage from burn cannot be reduced, and it's effects cannot be ignored. So if any of them somehow do accept/are forced to accept/or take burn they would also take the nonlethal damage (and somewhere on another plane of existence, a paizo developer would cry in agony).
Neither the skeleton champion or the zombie are kineticists, so they can accept/be forced to accept/take any amount of burn, I assume even after it renders them unconsious. Although if I recall the rules for nonlethal damage it would convert back into lethal damage and basically be a wash.
The character cannot accept burn (and likely cannot be forced to accept burn either, see above), but he can still take burn whenever his cohort, the dhampir uses their Void Healer wild talent on the character. This is the only condition I can think of that would create this situation however.
The Dhampir can only accept a limited amount of burn, and can be forced to accept burn (such as when a Gather Power attempt fails), but he can take additional burn beyond that from sources outside of their control (Aka Void Healer). I am assuming for this hypotheses that the character's Void Healer qualifies as a source outside the dhampir's control, and vice versa. Since the dhampir doesn't get to choose whether he or the character takes the burn when the character uses void healer, and vice versa. Although I suppose the character/dhampir could try and save against the wild talent like any other "harmless" spell-like ability.
For the Zombie: The zombie doen't have an intelligence score, so it can never heal, regardless of how long it "rests". Channeling negative energy won't get rid of the nonlethal damage from the burn it has accepted either. Meaning the nonlethal damage from the zombie's burn will eventually render it "unconscious"... Forever. Making using void healer this way basically useless.
For the character, the dhampir, and the Skeleton Champion: Thanks to their intelligence scores (or for the dhampir, thanks to not being undead), the character, the dhampir, or the skeleton champion can be left to rest for a day whenever the nonlethal damage from the burn (or damage they take subsequently alongside the burn) finally renders them "unconscious".
Q-1) This means that the kineticist can choose to either accept the burn or the recipient takes the burn, correct?
A-1) For Void Healer an undead recipient cannot accept the burn. Whether the kineticist himself can accept the burn or not also depends on if he's undead or not. If the kineticist is also undead, he can't accept the burn either.
If undead kineticist (or other creature type that doesn't accept nonlethal damage), can't do anything because can't accept burn, can't give the burn to undead recipient, and no Internal Buffer because couldn't have accepted burn to begin with.
If non-undead kineticist (or other creature type that accepts nonlethal damage), can either accept burn himself or use Internal Buffer to heal undead targets.
Q-2) Does this also mean that they cannot be "forced to accept burn"? Such as because of a failed attempt to Gather Power (see below).
The Gather Power class feature says:
If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it, she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild surge that forces her to accept a number of points of burn equal to the number of points by which her gathered power would have reduced the burn cost.
A-2) Undead or other creatures that don't suffer from nonlethal damage don't ever accept burn, nor forced to accept burn. So if failed the concentration check while gathering power, no burn accepted.
Q-3) Is there a difference between "accepting burn", "being forced to accept burn", and "taking burn"?
A-3) "A kineticist can't choose to accept burn if it would put her total number of points of burn higher than 3 + her Constitution modifier (though she can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside her control)."
A kineticist can't use his own kineticist abilities (actions within their control) to willingly to accept more burn that daily limit. So no Void Healer, accept burn himself, and go over daily limit.
From actions outside his control, such as accepting kinetic healing and the utility talent's burn cost, or failing a concentration check while gathering power, or taking some special special items that force burn on folks (like the alchemical burn items in Ultimate Intrigue), could go over that daily limit of burn.
Q-4) The burn class feature specifies kineticists, does this mean that a non-kineticist can accept/be forced to accept/take burn even if they are incapable of taking nonlethal damage?
A-4) See answers A-1 & A-2, if a creature can't take nonlethal damage, can't take burn. The link in answer A-1 has Mark Seifter giving an example of undead recipients of Void Healer not being able to accept the burn cost of Void Healer because they're undead (immune to nonlethal damage = can't accept burn, forced or willingly).
Q-5) The Burn class feature specifies kineticists when discussing the number of points of burn you can accept. Does this limit also apply to non-kineticists?
A-5) See answer A-3, a creature capable of accepting nonlethal damage, can accept burn. A non-kineticist doesn't have the daily burn limit for accepting burn from their own kineticist abilities (because they don't have kineticist abilities).
Q-6) Does being healed by a kineticist other than yourself (using either Kinetic Healer or Void Healer) count as a "source outside [your] control" for the purpose of being able to accept/take the burn for them using this ability on you?
A-6 Yes. Another kineticist's abilities are outside your control. An undead recipient of Void Healer would still not be able to accept the burn cost though (answers A-1, A-2, A-4).
Q-7) If nonlethal damage from burn cannot be reduced, does a creature immune to nonlethal damage still take nonlethal damage from Burn if it somehow acquired burn?
A-7) See answers A-1, A-2, A-4, A-6. Creatures immune to nonlethal damage (either naturally or an ability that negates it temporarily that got implemented before the acceptance of burn) can't accept burn, and subsequently that means no nonlethal damage.
The character definitely cannot accept burn; because as an undead he is immune to the non-lethal damage it would cause, and he has a class feature preventing him from accepting burn under that condition.
This is correct.
If an undead kineticist cannot be forced to accept burn, then Gather Power becomes an overpoweringly effective class feature for them because it has is no real penalty for failure. This is more than equal to the lose of access to utility talents which require accepting burn in my mind.
That's fine, since not that many kineticists get hit while gathering power since it doesn't provoke, or even if they do because of readied actions, they can always use different tactics to avoid the readied actions (be further away or use more defensive abilities like party member's magic or magic items). Since you consider this "more than equal to the [loss] of access to utility talents which require accepting burn in [your] mind", that's good since Void Healer is waaaay less useful for an undead kineticist.
However I do think that the character can still take burn, because it isn't prohibited by the RAW; and prohibiting it would either significantly reduce or increase the effectiveness of Void Healer depending upon what happens when you attempt to force a creature that cannot take burn to take burn (see below).
They can't. Creatures that can't have nonlethal damage can't accept burn. Kineticists or otherwise. Void healer isn't as useful as kinetic healer, that's by design.
Ignoring his ability to channel negative energy for the moment (perhaps because the character already used it all up for the day) the character can use the Void Healer wild talent on either the dhampir, the skeleton champion, or the zombie to heal them, but he cannot use it on himself because he can't accept the burn for doing so, moreover he must choose to have the dhampir, skeleton champion, or zombie take the burn (because he can't).
Only the dhampir because that's the only creature listed that can have nonlethal damage.
Neither the character, the skeleton champion, or the zombie are subject to nonlethal damage as a general rule of their creature types, however the specific rule in the class feature says that the nonlethal damage from burn cannot be reduced, and it's effects cannot be ignored. So if any of them somehow do accept/are forced to accept/or take burn they would also take the nonlethal damage (and somewhere on another plane of existence, a paizo developer would cry in agony).
Since they aren't subject to nonlethal damage, they can't accept burn. No developer's tears today.
Neither the skeleton champion or the zombie are kineticists, so they can accept/be forced to accept/take any amount of burn, I assume even after it renders them unconsious. Although if I recall the rules for nonlethal damage it would convert back into lethal damage and basically be a wash.
They're undead and can't take nonlethal damage and can't accept burn. If they were a creature type that accepted nonlethal damage, they could have accepted burn beyond any normal kineticist daily limit.
The character cannot accept burn (and likely cannot be forced to accept burn either, see above), but he can still take burn whenever his cohort, the dhampir uses their Void Healer wild talent on the character. This is the only condition I can think of that would create this situation however.
Nope. Immune to nonlethal damage = no burn, even from outside sources.
The Dhampir can only accept a limited amount of burn, and can be forced to accept burn (such as when a Gather Power attempt fails), but he can take additional burn beyond that from sources outside of their control (Aka Void Healer). I am assuming for this hypotheses that the character's Void Healer qualifies as a source outside the dhampir's control, and vice versa. Since the dhampir doesn't get to choose whether he or the character takes the burn when the character uses void healer, and vice versa. Although I suppose the character/dhampir could try and save against the wild talent like any other "harmless" spell-like ability.
The dhampir's own use of Void Healer is a source within his control, but not from the character's use of Void Healer. The dhampir may not have a choice of who accepts the burn when using Void Healer on the character (because the dhampir is the only legal recipient of the burn), he had to control of "Not Using It". Kinetic Healer and and Void Healer only works on "willing" creatures, no saving throws involved. Unconscious creatures are considered willing, but undead don't get to benefit from such a state normally.
For the Zombie: The zombie doen't have an intelligence score, so it can never heal, regardless of how long it "rests". Channeling negative energy won't get rid of the nonlethal damage from the burn it has accepted either. Meaning the nonlethal damage from the zombie's burn will eventually render it "unconscious"... Forever. Making using void healer this way basically useless.
Zombie didn't have any nonlethal damage, because it's immune and couldn't accept burn.
For the character, the dhampir, and the Skeleton Champion: Thanks to their intelligence scores (or for the dhampir, thanks to not being undead), the character, the dhampir, or the skeleton champion can be left to rest for a day whenever the nonlethal damage from the burn (or damage they take subsequently alongside the burn) finally renders them "unconscious".
Only the dhampir would have removed the burn and nonlethal damage (from burn or otherwise) because it's the only creature listed that could have nonlethal damage and could have accepted burn. All the others are immune and so no burn for them.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to answer every question in my thread in such detail, and doubly thank you for going over the hypothetical in relation to your answers!
I admit this is certainly what the game's developers would call a "corner case", but I hope this thread continues to accrue FAQ nominations so that the developers and designers can weigh in on this officially by publishing an errata to the PRD or a FAQ. I prefer my game rules to be crystal clear, and I certainly can't expect my players to go searching through a forum for the rules to a game that has an entire shelf worth of published rulebooks.
So for my own house rules, and any material I write for pathfinder the correct interpretation of the mechanics of Burn are as follows:
A) "accept/accepting burn", "being forced to accept burn", and "take/taking burn" are considered equivalent terms.
B) The Burn class feature is intended to be read as follows:
Burn (Ex): At 1st level, a kineticist can overexert herself to channel more power than normal, pushing past the limit of what is safe for her body by accepting burn. Some of her wild talents allow her to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect, while others require her to accept a certain amount of burn to use that talent at all. For each point of burn she accepts, a character takes 1 point of nonlethal damage per character level. This damage can't be healed by any means other than getting a full night's rest, which removes all burn and associated nonlethal damage. Nonlethal damage from burn can't be reduced or redirected, and a character incapable of taking nonlethal damage can't accept burn. A kineticist can accept only 1 point of burn per round. This limit rises to 2 points of burn at 6th level, and rises by 1 additional point every 3 levels thereafter. A kineticist can't choose to accept burn if it would put her total number of points of burn higher than 3 + her Constitution modifier (though she can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside her control). A character who has accepted burn never benefits from abilities that allow her to ignore or alter the effects she receives from nonlethal damage.
The interpretation above eliminates the potential for all of the awkwardness present in my original post's hypothetical situation, and seems to be in keeping with how the designer interprets the rules. Does this look correct?