Magus / Wizard / Eldritch Knight

[Heroguy1278]

My magus is going a bit of a strange build, but if we're right on the mechanics on this, it could turn out pretty awesome at high level.

Magus 2
Wizard 5
Eldritch Knight 10
Wizard 3

The basic idea it to be able to full attack with a keen scimitar, casting a spell with Spell Combat; if there's a crit, he can then cast ANOTHER spell. With Spell Combat, he can cast any spell on the magus list; I don't believe it ever states that he has to have said spells due to being a magus, so he can prepare them with his wizard spell slots and cast them with Spell Combat. And, of course, with Eld Knight's Spell Critical, he is able to cast a spell as a swift action for free- and, since he'd eventually get 9th level spells...

It'd take a long time before all the benefits start outweighing all the minuses (s#%+ty wizard BAB, anyone?) but he'd eventually start pumping out massive damage. His plan is to prepare a bunch of iterations of Shocking Grasp with plenty of metamagic stacked on (Intensified, Empowered, Maximized, probably another Intensified), potentially with Spell Perfection, and ALSO double the incredible payload from that on a crit.

Anything I'm missing, here? I can tell there are some weaknesses to the build, but I'm curious what anyone else thinks.

Links to things mentioned for reference:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/eldritch-kni ght
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/shockingGrasp.html
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/intensified-spell-metamagic
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/maximize-spell-metamagic---fi nal
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/empower-spell-metamagic---fin al
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection

[Kurald Galain]

It all depends on the level you're playing at.

At levels 15 and up, you do get seventh level spells and that's a big benefit. At any lower level, a plain Magus is going to be much more effective due to its class features and arcana that you're missing out on.

If you want to cast more spells per round, you can use Quicken Spell and the metamagic reducing traits for that. You can also carry multiple spell storing weapons and swap them with Quickdraw. Simply put, a plain Magus can already pump out massive damage, and can do so at lower level than the EK.

[Heroguy1278]

Kurald Galain wrote:

It all depends on the level you're playing at.

At levels 15 and up, you do get seventh level spells and that's a big benefit. At any lower level, a plain Magus is going to be much more effective due to its class features and arcana that you're missing out on.

If you want to cast more spells per round, you can use Quicken Spell and the metamagic reducing traits for that. You can also carry multiple spell storing weapons and swap them with Quickdraw. Simply put, a plain Magus can already pump out massive damage, and can do so at lower level than the EK.

Probably part of the reason this build works is because I haven't included traits, which makes Quicken pricey, though of course a Spell Perfection in the right place can solve that.

I do see your point, though.

[Texas Snyper]

I know that when you multiclass casters you keep their spells separate. I'm not sure if that also means their spell lists are "technically" different, however. For instance, is the wizard's shocking grasp still count as being on the magus spell list or is there a magus spell list shocking grasp and a separate wizard spell list shocking grasp?

[Snowlilly]

Texas Snyper wrote:

I know that when you multiclass casters you keep their spells separate. I'm not sure if that also means their spell lists are "technically" different, however. For instance, is the wizard's shocking grasp still count as being on the magus spell list or is there a magus spell list shocking grasp and a separate wizard spell list shocking grasp?

A magus can copy/memorize spells from a wizard spellbook, and vise versa.

The spells are the same, the magus is just more restricted in what he can learn and cast without expending resources.

[MrCharisma]

I'm fairly sure this doesn't work:

BROAD STUDY

Quote:

Broad Study (Ex)

Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class

Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.

This implies that without this you can't do it.

I know technically Shocking Grasp is on both lists, and you could say that means you can use it with spell combat even if you cast it with a wizard spell-slot, but I'm fairly sure there's an FAQ somewhere that says you can't. There's an implication there.

[Snowlilly]

MrCharisma wrote:

I'm fairly sure this doesn't work:

BROAD STUDY

Quote:

Broad Study (Ex)

Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class

Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.

This implies that without this you can't do it.

I know technically Shocking Grasp is on both lists, and you could say that means you can use it with spell combat even if you cast it with a wizard spell-slot, but I'm fairly sure there's an FAQ somewhere that says you can't. There's an implication there.

Spells are memorized separately for each class. Using the same spellbook you can memorize Shocking Grasp in both your wizard spell slots and your magus spell slots.

The arcana's focus is on usage, not preparation. You cannot use spellstrike or spell combat on spells cast from the wizard spell slots without Spell Blending.

[Atarlost]

Snowlilly wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

I'm fairly sure this doesn't work:

BROAD STUDY

Quote:

Broad Study (Ex)

Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class

Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.

This implies that without this you can't do it.

I know technically Shocking Grasp is on both lists, and you could say that means you can use it with spell combat even if you cast it with a wizard spell-slot, but I'm fairly sure there's an FAQ somewhere that says you can't. There's an implication there.

Spells are memorized separately for each class. Using the same spellbook you can memorize Shocking Grasp in both your wizard spell slots and your magus spell slots.

The arcana's focus is on usage, not preparation. You cannot use spellstrike or spell combat on spells cast from the wizard spell slots without Spell Blending.

No, you cannot spell combat spells that are not on the magus spell list. Spellstrike doesn't appear to have that restriction. If a spell is on the magus spell list it's on the magus spell list. This is why a Magus with Wand Wielder can spell combat a staff of disintegrate but not a staff of Harm even though he has to UMD both because he's not high enough level to cast either. One is on the magus list and the other isn't. If he has the wizard levels to cast disintegrate he can spell combat it because the magus spell list is a list of spells and disintegrate is on that list.

[Heroguy1278]

Yeah, Broad Study clearly states that it allows you to use spellstrike and spell combat with a DIFFERENT SPELL LIST; spells that magi normally don't get, like... Meteor Swarm, or something. It doesn't necessarily imply that it is necessary to get Broad Study to use, say, Shocking Grasp or Disintigrate with wizard spell slots, since those spells are indeed on the magus spell list; you just aren't casting them using magus spell slots.

TL;DR, the question hinges on whether there are multiple Shocking Grasp spells, one for each spell list, and there is no overlap (you have to use Spellstrike and Spell Combat with MAGUS SPELL SLOTS), or if there's one Shocking Grasp spell on multiple spell lists (allowing you to use WIZARD SPELL SLOTS as well, if they are filled with a spell from the magus spell list). Phew, complicated.

Snowlilly wrote:

Texas Snyper wrote:

I know that when you multiclass casters you keep their spells separate. I'm not sure if that also means their spell lists are "technically" different, however. For instance, is the wizard's shocking grasp still count as being on the magus spell list or is there a magus spell list shocking grasp and a separate wizard spell list shocking grasp?

A magus can copy/memorize spells from a wizard spellbook, and vise versa.

The spells are the same, the magus is just more restricted in what he can learn and cast without expending resources.

This makes sense to me, and what I interpreted it as; you can Spellstrike and Spell Combat with spell slots from other classes.

[Majuba]

It does not work: FAQ LINK

It has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.

[MrCharisma]

Majuba wrote:

It does not work: FAQ LINK

It has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.

Awesome, I knew it'd be out there somewhere. Thanks Majuba (also that's an awesome name).

To the OP, it's worth noting that the Critical Strike arcana (Prerequisite: Magus 12) gives you the same ability to cast a spell as a swift action on a crit that you were getting from being an EK. (actually I just re-read that ability and you can only do it once per day, it's terrible don't do it)

Here's what you can do instead:
Magical Lineage (shocking grasp)
Highten Spell Feat tax for ....
Preferred Spell (shocking grasp)
Intensified Spell
Elemental Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Spell Perfection (shocking grasp)

So PREFERRED SPELL lets you start the day with no damage spells prepared. You can just prepare all the defense/utility spells you want and have a grand old time. If push comes to shove, you can swap out any spell you want for shocking grasp, and you can apply metamagic feats on the fly (which is amazing).

INTENSIFY SPELL coupled with MAGICAL LINEAGE means that every shocking grasp you cast is 10d6 damage as a level 1 spell before you add anything else to it (and with a 15-20 crit range, that's never going to be irrelevant).
SPELL PERFECTION means that you can add 1 more metamagic for free.

Here's how it goes:
Round 1:
Swift action - Use your arcane pool to enhance your weapon
Standard action - Cast HASTE
Move action - Move to enemy
(or if you're already in range: Full Round - Spell Combat & cast haste)

Round 2:
Swift action - QUICKENED INTENSIFIED Shocking Grasp (Which thanks to MAGICAL LINEAGE and SPELL PERFECTION is 10d6 (average 35) damage for only a 1st level spell slot)
Full Round action - Spell Combat with MAXIMIZED INTENSIFIED Shocking Grasp (Which thanks to MAGICAL LINEAGE and SPELL PERFECTION is 5d6+30 (average 47.5) damage for only a 1st level spell slot)

Let's assume lvl 15 magus (the earliest you can can get spell perfection), your normal BAB is +11/+6/+1

As a full round action your attack routine will look like this:
+11/+9/+9/+9//+4/-1 (+Str/dex, + weapon enhancement, + whatever else you have going for you)
Edit:(Actually these numbers are +12/+10/+10/+5/+0 thanks to the HASTE)
The first attack is the free attack you get from spellstrike with your quickened spell, and thus happens before spell combat, so doesn't take the penalties that spell combat impart.
The second attack is the free attack you get from spellstrike with the spell you cast as part of spell combat, so it does take the appropriate penalties (-2 to hit).
The third attack is the free attack you get from HASTE, and as part of spell combat it takes the appropriate penalties.
The fourth, fifth and sixth attacks are your normal iterative attacks and are part of spell combat, so they take the appropriate penalties.
This means that you get 6 attacks in a round (4 of the pretty much at full BAB) and add 15d6+30 (average 82.5) lightning damage as well. You should have a 15-20 crit range which affects all 6 attacks and the spell damage(If 1 spell crits you're looking at over 100 spell damage, if both crit it averages over 150).
All of this is done with first level spell slots.
All of this is done without preparing shocking grasp at all.
If you need to change out the damage type you can use up a second level spell slot and ELEMENTAL SPELL.
If you need help getting past spell resistance you can use HIGHTEN SPELL and any higher level spell slot you desire (although really we only took this feat to get PREFERRED SPELL).
Thanks to Spell Recall you can recall all the defense/utility spells you used/swapped out for shocking grasp if you need to use them later.

This all assumes you want to be the cookie-cutter shocking grasp magus.
There are plenty of other SPELLS and more than enough METAMAGIC FEATS to choose from.

DAZING PIERCING TOPPLING MAGIC-MISSILE as a second level spell slot seems pretty funny.
SELECTIVE WIDENED FIREBALL for a third level spell slot is great.

Get creative!