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Question: Do temporary item enhancements to a weapon or armor increase an objects hardness and hit points? …such as those from a greater magic weapon or magic vestment spell, or a paladin’s Divine Bond (Su) ability?
Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and +10 to the item's hit points.
And per the small legend at the end of table:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/additionalRules.html#table- 7-12-common-armor-weapon-and-shield-hardness-and-hit-points1 Add +2 for each +1 enhancement bonus of magic items.
2 The hp value given is for Medium armor, weapons, and shields. Divide by 2 for each size category of the item smaller than Medium, or multiply it by 2 for each size category larger than Medium.
3 Add 10 hp for each +1 enhancement bonus of magic items.
4 Varies by material; see Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points.
I think the answer hinges on what defines a “magic item”. If we take the literal stance, that a “magic item” is something created with one of the [Item Creation] crafting feats, then it is 'somewhat' clear (or an argument could be made) that a spell would not increase hp or hardness, since the item in question could just be a masterwork item with a spell effect on it.
However, if we look at any item with an enhancement bonus as a “magic item”, then it generates more questions like – what happens when the item is damaged, and the temporary effect wears off? Or what happens if the +1 sword, temporary gets boosted to a +5 sword, etc.There is already some precedent that temporary effects do not work the same as the real thing (see greater magic weapon and its inability to penetrate material and alignment DR like a real magic weapon of +5 enhancement, it only bypasses magic, regardless of bonus granted by the spell).
Lastly, if we just apply the RAW (Rules As Written), the temporary effects listed, i.e. greater magic weapon or magic vestment spells, or paladin’s Divine Bond (Su); don’t say they increase the hp or hardness of the items they are on. They only say they give bonuses to enhancement. And if we go directly by RAW, it only does, what the rules say it does…so it doesn’t add hardness or hp, since that’s not listed as one of the benefits that the spells/ability grants.
Thoughts? Or does anyone have a official answer to this?
YIDM
The only forum threads I have found similar is the following:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mz4v?Enhancement-bonuses-to-weapons-shields-an d
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nz16?Magical-weapons-hardness-calculation
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l5fc?Weapon-hardness-and-breaking-items
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mjgg?Sunder-dispel-magic-item-natural-attack
However, none of these address my question.
Anyone else know of similar posts about temporary item enhancement and game effects?
YIDM
However, if we look at any item with an enhancement bonus as a “magic item”, then it generates more questions like – what happens when the item is damaged, and the temporary effect wears off? Or what happens if the +1 sword, temporary gets boosted to a +5 sword, etc.
Because of these types of ramifications, I think the simplest scenario takes prescendent. No, I don't think there's a rule that says "enhancement bonus = magic item." So, lacking that, there's no way they can be. However, for items that are already magic, I would say they do increase the hit points but only if it is described as stacking as is the case with Divine Bond but not with magic weapon. It might be weird, but it has more rules support.
So what happens when the Divine Bond wears off (if the item has been damaged)? Does the item sudden break?
Also, stacking enhancement is fine and supported by the paladin ability. But it doesn't say that it increases hit points or hardness (in the description of the paladin ability). Just going by RAW here.
YIDM
It doesn't say it gets more HP but the rules of magic item -> enhancement bonus -> hp and hardness already exist. If anything, them not getting hp and hardness would be the special case. If the item has enough total damage to break the item when Bond wears off, then yes, I'd say it's broken.
Okay, so what happens when a paladin uses Divine Bond on a normal weapon? (not masterwork).
It's not a magic weapon by any definition, it's not even masterwork (which all magic weapons are), and wouldn't follow the magic weapon rules for dispel magic making it temporary non-magical for 1d4 rounds, but it does gain an enhancement bonus (depending on the paladin's level), per the ability text of Divine Bond.
So, I don't see your interpretation making sense in all instances. The rules should be consistent.
YIDM
It's not magical. It simply has an enhancement bonus. The same gap in the rules is as I mentioned earlier.
As for dispel magic, you're correct. You'd be correct in any event outside of this discussion since the bond is supernatural and not a spell or spell-like.
They are consistent. However, different rules are at play in each of these scenarios. They're just not consolidated into a singular, neat paragraph.
So, if I read your interpretation correctly - are you saying:
1) If you Divine Bond a normal weapon, giving it +5 enhancement, it can be sundered and broken as easily as a normal sword would be.
2) If you Divine Bond a magical +1 sword, giving it +5 enhancement, it becomes as hard to sunder and break (both hp and hardness), as a holy avenger? (or any other +5 sword)
Is this correct?
You will note the text of the PF Core Rules:
Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and +10 to the item's hit points.
It says "magic" armor, shields, and weapons.
YIDM
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I'm saying that's what the rules currently and directly support. Could they use an FAQ? I think so.
Does anyone else care to chime in on this? Has this come up in anyone else game? Does the answer seem intuitive one way or another, or how did "you" think it works? (or was it considered).
Thanks.
YIDM
Hasn't come up in my game but I would tend to KISS - temporary effects don't add hardness or HP.
The only other spell I can find that clearly states it adds to enhancement and hardness/hit points is the rags to riches spell. Which begs the question, was rags to riches meant to increase hardness by 7 (5 listed +2 hardness for +1 enhancement), and increase hp by 10 + CL (+10 for +1 enhancement, and +CL for spell)???
This spell not only mentions enhancement, but also specifically mentions adding hardness and hit points. Effects like greater magic weapon, magic vestment, and Divine Bond, only mention adding enhancement.
Currently, the RAW is to add hardness and hit points, is inferring that because the +1 sword is a "magic" weapon, when it is temporarily enhanced beyond it +1, it gains more hit points and hardness because of how the black and white rules were written. So rules by inference...which can be a slippery slope if that is not what was intended.
Thoughts? What seems RAI, what seems RAW, and how would you view this topic?
YIDM