Hi, first of all, I apologize in advance if this is the wrong forum for this, but it seemed more appropriate based on the posts I saw here than in the advice forum. I also apologize for the post's length!
So, I'm making an alternate Serpentfolk. I'm running into a couple of issues though, namely: 1) Size/Form, 2) Venom/natural attacks, 3) Movement, 4) stat bonuses. I would appreciate thoughts and advice on the the above :)
I am making two types of Serpentfolk, one for use in jungles and the like where there is a great deal of vertical terrain, water, foliage, etc; and another for subterranean use where there's all sorts of darkness, shadow, crevices, cracks, rubble - terrain that appeals to stealth and squeezing. They are meant to be the same species, with one just having some alternate traits suitable to terrain.
1) My first (and biggest) problem: Size and form! I want these Serpentfolk to actually resemble serpents, lol. That said, they will have a slim/lithe (scaly and snake-like!) torso with two rather normal arms, and the lower body of a snake (and the long serpentine neck seen in the paizo serpentfolk artwork). I want them overall to be rather lithe - like elves or fetchlings - and rather squishable. I intend to make the compression ability a racial feat. The difficulty is whether they should be classified as large or medium. I would like them to be roughly human height, ranging from 5 to 7 feet, although I'm ok with lowering that to 5 to 6 feet. However, I want a like amount of serpent-body on the ground, because: physics. Most serpents can't move with more than a third of their body elevated, and my sense of disbelief caps me out at allowing them a 50% lift due to handwavium. I don't want these guys to be more than 18" wide at the "torso" or much more than 12-ish for the rest of their body (assuming a normal oval-ish snake body shape), like I said - lithe (more viper than boa). The weight would probably be around 200-250 for that much snake plus a torso I imagine. Is this a Large(long) 10' space with 5' reach creature - or a medium creature? The stealth and dex and ac penalty is anathema to the concept of sneaky, quick, viper-people, but they would be anywhere from 10-14' long. Their weight and bulk (considering coils) is more in-line with medium however. Thoughts?
2) Natural attacks and Venom. I use the Pathfinder Unchained poison/disease system, because the old system drove me nuts. I would like to give these serpentfolk an STR poison, that is potentially lethal, but unlimited doses as with a standard viper seems too nuts for that. I want to limit the application of venom, and I'm not attached to keeping a bite attack separate from the venom (just using it to deliver venom). I'm considering a) 3/day + con modifier uses of venom per day (whether bite is nat attack or just a part of the uses), b) Adding a number of rounds between uses (3-4, probably). These limited applications would be lethal, and probably require 2 saves. Or, I am considering a weaker (non-lethal) venom with unlimited usage on bite nat attack that cures with 1 save. I want it useful but not too powerful. Kind of undecided on any sort of constriction ability - possibly as a feat, but just as likely not.
3) Movement: Snakes (I own several) get around QUITE well... I was considering giving them a land speed of 30, and a swim and climb speed of 20. Considering dropping the swim speed, or lowering the land speed to 20. What sounds most balanced? I do want them to keep the climb speed at the very least.
4) Stat Bonuses: this involves an ollllllld RPG argument that I'm hesitant to even mention for fear that the box cannot be closed once open. Namely, I want these serpentfolk to be clever, full of guile, quick and quick-witted. Properly viper seeming. I am giving them a net +2 dex (maybe 4) regardless of size or anything else. But for the rest... int, wis, or cha? I tend to think Cha would be ruled out since I want them to have a very predatory and ruthless vibe. So that leaves the terrible choice of Int or Wis - which best represents cunning and planning and guile? Sneakiness and ruthlessness? As for str/con, I don't particularly want any bonuses, and am considering -2 con and/or -2 cha.
Thanks very much for reading, and again - I'd appreciate any constructive feedback!
Oh, and yes, these serpentfolk would potentially be available for PC use. Some over-poweredness is acceptable, as I would just make the lethality of the campaign increased to compensate - but I don't want to go into racial hit die, I'd advance them with classes or for special NPCs, templates.
Thanks again!
I'm glad I read Sideromancer's reply before posting my own. I am in complete agreement.
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Hi, first of all, I apologize in advance if this is the wrong forum for this, but it seemed more appropriate based on the posts I saw here than in the advice forum. I also apologize for the post's length!
So, I'm making an alternate Serpentfolk. I'm running into a couple of issues though, namely: 1) Size/Form, 2) Venom/natural attacks, 3) Movement, 4) stat bonuses. I would appreciate thoughts and advice on the the above :)
I am making two types of Serpentfolk, one for use in jungles and the like where there is a great deal of vertical terrain, water, foliage, etc; and another for subterranean use where there's all sorts of darkness, shadow, crevices, cracks, rubble - terrain that appeals to stealth and squeezing. They are meant to be the same species, with one just having some alternate traits suitable to terrain.
1) My first (and biggest) problem: Size and form! I want these Serpentfolk to actually resemble serpents, lol. That said, they will have a slim/lithe (scaly and snake-like!) torso with two rather normal arms, and the lower body of a snake (and the long serpentine neck seen in the paizo serpentfolk artwork). I want them overall to be rather lithe - like elves or fetchlings - and rather squishable. I intend to make the compression ability a racial feat. The difficulty is whether they should be classified as large or medium. I would like them to be roughly human height, ranging from 5 to 7 feet, although I'm ok with lowering that to 5 to 6 feet. However, I want a like amount of serpent-body on the ground, because: physics. Most serpents can't move with more than a third of their body elevated, and my sense of disbelief caps me out at allowing them a 50% lift due to handwavium. I don't want these guys to be more than 18" wide at the "torso" or much more than 12-ish for the rest of their body (assuming a normal oval-ish snake body shape), like I said - lithe (more viper than boa). The weight would probably be around 200-250 for that much snake plus a torso I imagine. Is this a Large(long)...
What about a desert serpentfolk?
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Thanks for the replies, all.
Sideromancer/Deth:I am using the ARG race builder (although just as a measure, not a rule); but I'm still finalizing a few other traits. I was torn between humanoid(reptilian) and monstrous humanoid, due to the lower body of a serpent. I do definitely want to give them a venom ability that's not like the toxic ability from the ARG. I know it's very powerful, which is why I'm wondering what sort of limitations sound best. As for medium over large - that's how I feel too, but how do I get around their "tails" being longer than 5'? Unless tightly coiled, they could not fit in a 5x5 space.
I have scoured bestiaries 1-5, and my old 2.5 D&D monstrous manual. There are creatures like this but they seem to run the gamut of large(tall), large(long), and medium - with wildly differing weights. The Emperor Cobra is a large(10space/reach) at 12 feet long; but the Peuchen, which is almost exactly the same stats as the serpentfolk I'm going for (16' long, more or less a foot wide, has a wingspan (arms for my purposes), and weighs about 250) - is medium. It's very frustrating, lol.
Imbicatus:I have looked at the 3.5 Yuan-ti abominations. They are too bulky for what I'm aiming for, they feel like a much more traditional "large" brutish creature. Too... muscular? I guess. I'm actually more reminded of Salamanders when i think of this race (which, incidentally, are medium).
Theliah: I have other plans for my deserts ^_^. Although now you have me envisioning side-winding desert serpentfolk, hehe.
Other racial traits I was adding or considering: Scent, jungle/subterranean "stride" either in lieu of or in concert with the move speeds, stealth bonus in appropriate terrain, natural armor of +1 or +2, low-light/darkvision for jungle/subterranean respectively, a +2 bonus v poison/mental (it's in the ARG).
Oh, and Sideromancer, my elves are a departure from the norm in this campaign, they are more savage, taller, physically impressive, and more fey in aspect. Not the typical magically inclined elves - far more druidic and aggressive. My dwarves are actually the magically inclined ones, hehe. The whole campaign is riddled with changes and departures. Additionally, I may well be using the Ultimate Psionics Handbook (seems better than OA) with these serpentfolk to shake things up a little.
Just thought as an alternative to +2 dex. A bonus to ref saves, and/or a bonus to initiative and/or a bonus to escape artist skill checks to represent the quick sinuous serpent qualities.
I'm pretty sure that a dexterity bonus actually modifies all of those things? Although additional initiative in lieu of increasing the dex beyond +2 is a thought.
I think they should be a medium creature. They would at most stand 4-8 feet tall from the ground right? I think that would qualify for medium size.
Make them monstrous, they aren't humans covered in snake skin, they are true abominations.
For natural attack give it a bite for 1d6 with a poison, can be used Con modifier/day min 1. For an alternate Trait allow their tail to slam as a secondary and at a higher BAB give it reach. Furthermore they can get a bonus to trip using their tail.
Stats wise I would think +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
The 30 Swim 20 Climb 20 natural seems a bit much to me. How about a climb of 20 and natural speed of 20, never slowed by armor or encumberance. As an alternate trait drop climb to 10, or just a climb bonus, and allow for no reduction in speed for moving over rough terrain or squeezing.
Then give it a Swim Bonus and make it a class skill. Alternate trait to give a bonus to stealth.
And finally a bonus to perception and allow for a feat to use scent.
Those are my ideas....
At least the consensus seems to be medium! I guess that length of snake body could actually easily coil into a 5x5 space or less at least. That explanation should calm the nerd rage my friend will issue at them not being large(long), lol.
I'm not 100% attached to the swim speed, but it seems like it's not unusual for serpentine creatures in PF.
At least the consensus seems to be medium!
Oops! I have to point to the Centaur, Large for space, medium for weapons, etc.
I went with medium, too, but (weakness) serpentine body-takes up a Large area. This allowed me to give them Slither, may act as Small when moving. Mine were a desert race, so no swimming, but they had serious Stealth mods. And a limited Burrow ability. The players got paranoid about making sure they camped on rocks.
Haha! So you DID make side-winder serpentfolk :)
A centaur, assuming the horse part is the size of an average thoroughbred horse these days (and not something bigger, like a destrier!) is 5 feet tall where the humanoid torso begins, lol! Add another few feet to that - and probably a rough length of 8 feet. That's a helluva lot different than a semi-cylindrical foot, foot and a half on the ground. Lot of weight difference, too.
My justification for medium is a combination of the above, plus the thought that in motion the length of coil on the ground is probably only about half extended most of the time (when moving quickly) due to how snakes move. When "standing still" it could be even more coiled. I imagine in battle it would be writhing around and dodging attacks in a quite lively fashion that would probably lash around all over that 5' square.
My friend will probably beat me over the head with "It's more than 5' long. It must be large." argument 'til I go insane, though.
When I'm done figuring this out I'll post the critter with ARG notation (as much as works anyway). I'm still happy to receive advice/suggestions :D
Thanks again, all.
PS: Still going back and forth on the venom and bite especially :(
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Haha! So you DID make side-winder serpentfolk :)
A centaur, assuming the horse part is the size of an average thoroughbred horse these days (and not something bigger, like a destrier!) is 5 feet tall where the humanoid torso begins, lol! Add another few feet to that - and probably a rough length of 8 feet. That's a helluva lot different than a semi-cylindrical foot, foot and a half on the ground. Lot of weight difference, too.
My justification for medium is a combination of the above, plus the thought that in motion the length of coil on the ground is probably only about half extended most of the time (when moving quickly) due to how snakes move. When "standing still" it could be even more coiled. I imagine in battle it would be writhing around and dodging attacks in a quite lively fashion that would probably lash around all over that 5' square.
My friend will probably beat me over the head with "It's more than 5' long. It must be large." argument 'til I go insane, though.
When I'm done figuring this out I'll post the critter with ARG notation (as much as works anyway). I'm still happy to receive advice/suggestions :D
Thanks again, all.
PS: Still going back and forth on the venom and bite especially :(
Well then, maybe they get a bonus on their CMD against trip and combat maneuver and maybe a bonus on their CMB when performing a trip combat maneuver. Maybe they even get reach with their tail when their BAB reaches +1.
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Might I suggest checking out Advanced Races #8: Lamia from Kobold Press. The lamia presented here are the serpent-bodied race, specifically a balanced PC race. You might find some ideas to use or you might decide to just use the race as is, whole-cloth :)
If you'd like an even more expanded version of the lamia PC race, along with a TON of other cool and interesting PC races, check out the Advanced Races Compendium, also from Kobold Press
Thanks, Marc. I'll definitely check that out. It'd be nice to see how something established handled a serpentine body for players for comparison :)
One of the reviews to that product made me stop to consider the boots dilemma... I suppose you could add a tail-tip kind of thing (only available from Serpentfolk (and other scaly tailed folk) crafters maybe?), but eh, who knows. I've already settled on the thought that any armor would have to be customized (masterwork at minimum) or piecemeal for the body form. Not to mention that riding animals would probably be a no-go (bring on the chariots!). All those costs add up, and IMO warrant the swim/climb speeds given.
No matter how I cut it, the prototype seems to be around 20/21 points or so under the ARG, which puts it firmly into Monstrous Humanoid territory.
Ah, I see now why you recommended the Advanced Races Compendium now. Their Lamia Commoners and the Serpentfolk I'm going for are very similar in many ways. Nice book btw! Amusingly, I've been doing a similar thing in my spare time - trying to bring many monstrous races down to playable level without racial HD coming into play. I'll have to look into KP a bit more after I'm done reading this book ;)
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Awesome! The Advanced Races Compendium really is a pretty great book - it's certainly packed with tons of crunch and fluff for new PC races.
Hope you do check out more from Kobold Press! There is a LOT of great stuff to choose from! :)