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I was talking to the GM about a hypothetical character that revolved around being stationary but making up for it in large damage, kind of like stationary artillery. There is some iconography in fantasy of this (in Dark Souls we have the Silver Knight archers with their greatbows). Since there's nothing like that in official materials I decided to think one up and I was hoping for input from the community about it.
Some conceptual starting points:
-It's heavy and has a large draw strength, so a minimum Str should be needed so not every archer could use it.
-It's not a mobile weapon.
-It should have a decent range increment as well as pretty good damage.
-It should be scary to see someone pointing this thing at you.
I originally looked into the weapon creation guidelines but it seems like a very commonly used weapon, the Composite Longbow, already kind of blows past the weapon creation guidelines so I decided to just use the Composite Longbow as a starting point. I initially erred on the side of caution to make sure it didn't get over-powered before getting input.
So, here's the stats and features I brainstormed:
Greatbow/Composite Greatbow
2-handed Ranged Martial
Dam: 2d6
Range: 100ft
Crit: 20 x3
Weight: 10 lbs
Description:
A Greatbow is an above-average sized bow that fires appropriately sized arrows, with a draw-strength to match. The Greatbow is rested upright on the ground while firing to support the bow's weight, and so you may not fire the Greatbow while prone. You must have at least 14 Strength to use a Greatbow. A creature can full-attack with a Greatbow provided they make no movement during their turn and only gets a single attack in a round if they 5-foot step. You may not shoot the Greatbow the same round that you take a move action. A creature under the effect of Haste has their number of attacks increased as normal, including allowing a single attack if they took a move action that turn. You may use Vital Strike (if you have the feat) at any time you would get an attack but are then limited to a single attack for the round. A Greatbow can have a strength enhancement like a Composite Longbow with a +0 enhancement starting at 14 Strength.
Special: A character with the Rapid Reload (Greatbow) feat may ignore the movement restrictions on the number of attacks mentioned above, regaining the normal interactions between 5-foot steps, full-attack actions, standard actions, and move actions.
My main concern is that, as it is now, there isn't much use for the Greatbow over the Composite Longbow at all. Consider if you had the base 14 Strength needed. At 14 Strength a Composite Longbow would be doing 1d8+2 for an average of 6.5 damage with the Greatbow doing an average of 7 damage. Considering the enhanced weight and needing a feat in order to bypass the normal "less movement" restrictions, a difference of .5 damage on average just doesn't seem to cut it.
Ideas:
1. The Double Hackbut firearm has 2d12 on the damage with a somewhat similar premise of lower mobility for more firepower. Should I just increase the damage? If so, to what? 2d8 gives an average of 9, 2d10 gives 11, and 2d12 gives 13.
2. Much of the inspiration for this weapon comes from Dark Souls, and one of the main things about the Greatbow in Dark Souls is that it knocks you right on your ass because of the force of the bow. Should I make the user of the Greatbow get some kind of free CMB check to knock a target prone that it hits? I wouldn't want it to just use a Trip attempt because I feel like something like a mermaid that doesn't have any legs would still have a good chance of being knocked over. Should I put in a generic CMB vs CMD check (max 1 size category larger using Dex or Str, whichever higher) to knock the target prone?
3. How about some cover-piercing properties? My initial thought would be the cover would have to be an inch thick or less with a maximum hardness of 5 (aka wood) for the Greatbow to pierce through, with each +1 magical enhancement allowing it to bypass an extra 2 hardness. This might also have the side-effect of allowing the Greatbow to ignore Shield Bonuses to AC of wooden shields of equal or lesser enhancement bonus, very hard to bypass AC of metal shields, and never through adamantine (unless also using adamantine arrows). I'm much more reluctant about this one than the other two ideas because it basically has all the headaches of a Sunder character for the GM, having to keep track of Hardness and keeping in mind different armor stats just because I'm attacking but it's fairly flavorful.
What do people think? If I add only one of the ideas above, my gut is to say to 2d12 damage or the prone idea. If both, go with 2d8 damage + potential prone.
Well a full attack is already a full round action, so unless you have some magic that lets you move as a swift or immediate action most of what you've written is redundant anyways.
At this point it's basically a bow that lets you trade moving and shooting once for an extra die of damage on all of your shots.
I'd be careful with it, most archers aren't going to move a lot anyways so for the most part it just gives them extra damage. Unless someone in chasing them down the drawback basically doesn't matter.
Letting rapid reload remove the drawback definitely makes it too powerful in my opinion.
Well, now that I see it does d6s instead of d8s I'm not so concerned.
Knocking someone prone is a bigger deal in pathfinder than in darksouls so I'd give it a chance to stagger them for one round instead. I wouldn't increase the damage or let it pierce cover. Maybe it could pierce cover but with a heavy negative to hit based on what the cover is and it's too much of a hassle in my opinion to make that table.
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Alright, so Staggered over Prone. That definitely sounds quite a bit better.
Well a full attack is already a full round action, so unless you have some magic that lets you move as a swift or immediate action most of what you've written is redundant anyways.
How should I write it to not be redundant? With a normal bow if someone comes in close you could still 5-foot step and full-attack, or do a move action and launch a single arrow if they simply need to reposition themselves on the battlefield. With how I have it written now I'm saying that you lose your full-attack if you make a 5-foot step (instead only getting a single attack) and you don't get to attack at all if you take an actual move action (unless under the effect of Haste). The stuff about Vital Strike can be taken out though now that I look at it.
Are you sure that 2d8 is too much though? At the 14 Strength needed to even qualify to use this weapon, a Composite Longbow would be sitting at 1d8+2 for damage (average 6.5, min 3, max 10) and with 2d6 the Greatbow would be sitting at an average of 7, min 2, max 12. 2d8 gives an average of 9, min 2, max 16. I may be wrong, but it feels like 2.5 damage average isn't terribly over-balancing considering how reduced your action-economy is using the bow and it at least makes it feel like it punches harder. Also when rolling two dice then you start to normalize to a bell-curve which makes it difficult to swing low but also difficult to swing high. On the surface, yeah, it looks like double damage (1d8 Composite Longbow vs 2d8 Greatbow) but when you consider the static bonuses that the Composite Longbow gets a head-start on then the gap is much smaller than it initially looks.
So this is what it looks like now:
Greatbow/Composite Greatbow
2-handed Ranged Martial
Dam: 2d6 (maybe 2d8)
Range: 100ft
Crit: 20 x3
Weight: 10 lbs
Description:
A Greatbow is an above-average sized bow that fires appropriately sized arrows, with a draw-strength to match. The Greatbow is rested upright on the ground while firing to support the bow's weight, and so you may not fire the Greatbow while prone. You must have at least 14 Strength to use a Greatbow. A creature can full-attack with a Greatbow provided they make no movement during their turn (including 5-foot steps) and only gets a single attack in a round if they 5-foot step. You may not make an attack with the Greatbow on the same round that you take a move action unless under the effects of Haste, in which case you may attack like normal. A Greatbow can have a strength enhancement like a Composite Longbow with a +0 enhancement starting at 14 Strength. When you hit an enemy, if the enemy is one size category larger than you or smaller, make a Combat Maneuver Check using your Dexterity Modifier or Strength Modifier, whichever is higher. If you succeed at this check the opponent is Staggered until the start of your next turn.
1. The action economy is more complicated than it should be and goes against the rules in a lot of ways. Just keep it simple: It takes a move action to mount the bow and free action to unmount it. If you fire the bow while not mounted, you take a -4 penalty to attack rolls.
2. As others point out, lack of mobility is already baked in ranged builds. Plus, the downsides of this weapon are easily mitigated by having a back up weapon.
3. Do not consider the double hackbut as comparable. The hackbut is a firearm that has to be put on a cart and requires two feats to make usable. It's on a different class than your weapon.
4. I'd make the damage be 1d10. I don't think it should do more damage than a heavy crossbow, especially when it doesn't require any feats to use and all of its drawbacks are easily mitigated by having a backup bow.
5. I'd totally remove the ability to stagger enemies. Your bow is already pretty strong as is. This ability just pushes it into very overpowered territory. Again, your bow doesn't require any feats to use effectively. Reloading it is a free action and it's a martial weapon. Weapons that do weird status effects like this are typically niche exotic weapons with a lot of drawbacks. This bow doesn't have any of them. It's roughly as effective as the most powerful ranged weapon in the game AND you want to give it an at-will stagger? Even normal combat maneuvers can't stagger enemies, and this bow lets you do it hundreds of feet away.
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Okay, I find this idea pretty interesting, but for me, I think the best way to do this would be to make it a very vital strike friendly weapon. Give it additional effects with vital strike, such as the possible stagger/trip. Most ranged builds are firing an intense level of ammo a round, so maybe this can use vital strike as a full round action to some extra effect.
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The action economy is more complicated than it should be and goes against the rules in a lot of ways. Just keep it simple: It takes a move action to mount the bow and free action to unmount it. If you fire the bow while not mounted, you take a -4 penalty to attack rolls.
That definitely makes things a lot less wordy and makes things come to just about the same place as how I have it currently written: "If you try to move with this weapon, life becomes difficult for you". Nice and streamlined and to the point. Sounds good to me.
Do not consider the double hackbut as comparable. The hackbut is a firearm that has to be put on a cart and requires two feats to make usable. It's on a different class than your weapon.
I assume you mean Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Rapid Reload are the feats. Considering point #5 as well, I take it I should at least make the weapon Exotic? I was certainly on the fence between being Martial and Exotic so I would be fine with making it Exotic if people think it fits better.
I'd make the damage be 1d10. I don't think it should do more damage than a heavy crossbow, especially when it doesn't require any feats to use and all of its drawbacks are easily mitigated by having a backup bow.
I would just like to re-iterate that the entire purpose of the Greatbow is to have a bigger punch on a hit than the Composite Longbow and in return have some drawbacks. What you propose makes it weaker than a Composite Longbow in terms of damage on a hit due to strength enhancements. Taking away the damage as well as the stagger just makes the Composite Longbow better in every and all categories from Action Economy to Range to Damage. If you think it needs more drawbacks or resources to use in order to outweigh some aspects, have those aspects tweaked, or have those aspects changed to something entirely different I'm all ears and absolutely welcome that kind of feedback. However, please don't take away everything it's meant to represent thematically and make it objectively worse than a weapon that is practically considered basic adventuring gear for many characters. It's ok to be worse in some regards but it needs to be better in at least something.
Give it additional effects with vital strike, such as the possible stagger/trip. Most ranged builds are firing an intense level of ammo a round, so maybe this can use vital strike as a full round action to some extra effect.
That's certainly an idea I haven't thought of. How do you think I should go about that? "If you use Vital Strike with it you gain X, Improved Vital Strike makes it gain X or Y (your choice), and Greater Vital Strike makes it gain X, Y, or Z. The effect lasts for one round" or something along those lines seems like a decent way to do it. Possible conditions I could think of for those are Shaken (I would be scared if someone shot me with a giant arrow), Staggered, Dazed, Prone, or make enemies using non-magical flight to start falling (you would almost take a wing right off with this thing. Also queue the mental image of flying paladins suddenly losing their class abilities because they got hit with a giant arrow). The questions then become which ones to use, and what kind of check to make those conditions stick? As for which ones, I kind of like the progression of Shaken (general debuff) -> Staggered (reduces their action economy) -> Prone. Shaken is odd to attach to something that's not really mentally-based though. Perhaps Sickened since they do (almost) the same thing but it seems more physical? Some kind of CMB check, or maybe a Fortitude save of 10 + BAB + Bow's Strength Enhancement? Actually, I really like incorporating the bow's Strength Enhancement into it since it gives a character an incentive to increase their strength over the base 14 needed. Besides, it simply makes sense that if the bow is hitting you harder it makes the effect harder to resist. Using 10 + BAB + Str Enhancement against their Fort save generally gives creatures about a 50% chance to save going by the average creature stats if you're a full BAB class.
Not only that but with nudging the player character a bit more on the MAD side it strikes a balancing point between "Do you want to hit reliably, or do you want to do more damage and try to make those conditions stick?" I would certainly just get the 14 str and leave it at that personally, but at least it gives the player some choice.
I would just like to re-iterate that the entire purpose of the Greatbow is to have a bigger punch on a hit than the Composite Longbow and in return have some drawbacks. What you propose makes it weaker than a Composite Longbow in terms of damage on a hit due to strength enhancements. Taking away the damage as well as the stagger just makes the Composite Longbow better in every and all categories from Action Economy to Range to Damage. If you think it needs more drawbacks or resources to use in order to outweigh some aspects, have those aspects tweaked, or have those aspects changed to something entirely different I'm all ears and absolutely welcome that kind of feedback. However, please don't take away everything it's meant to represent thematically and make it objectively worse than a weapon that is practically considered basic adventuring gear for many characters. It's ok to be worse in some regards but it needs to be better in at least something.I'd make the damage be 1d10. I don't think it should do more damage than a heavy crossbow, especially when it doesn't require any feats to use and all of its drawbacks are easily mitigated by having a backup bow.
Honestly, I'd just remove the Strength requirement to wield them. No other weapon I'm aware of has a Strength requirement. Alternatively, you could say that the bow needs to have a minimum of a +2 Strength rating. This way, the Strength requirement is appropriately baked in using the existing composite bow rules and it's cleaner design.
With the above Strength rating requirement, my previous suggestion for how mounting works, and a 1d10 damage dice, you could get away with making this a martial weapon.
Remember when designing this weapon that a composite longbow is one of the best mundane weapons in the game. Your weapon should never be more powerful than a composite bow. Not even close.
I did something lime this for the defensive weapons of a tribe of wild frog-people in a homebrew, was a footbow. Stats as comp longbow one size up, gets 1.5str bonus, move action to load, must be prone to load and fire.
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With the above Strength rating requirement, my previous suggestion for how mounting works, and a 1d10 damage dice, you could get away with making this a martial weapon.
Remember when designing this weapon that a composite longbow is one of the best mundane weapons in the game. Your weapon should never be more powerful than a composite bow. Not even close.
I'm honestly kind of intrigued by N. Jolly's little hook of making the bow meant to be used with Vital Strike. If I drop the minimum strength requirement but make it require a minimum strength enhancement, make it 1d10 with the ability to add strength enhancements at the same rate as a Composite Longbow (which makes it do at least a bit more damage than the Composite Longbow so now we're back on track), and have the mounting aspect to it but yet make it Exotic, do you think that would be enough to fit in some kind of special bonuses for Vital Strike? It fits thematically to have it be one big shot instead of a lot of smaller shots and Vital Strike is already known to be... sub-optimal.
Should we all try and brainstorm some ways to give Vital Strike a bit of love?
Because archers are in great need of a power boost.
I don't see the point in saying a weapon can't be better than X. A heavy crossbow does more damage and has a higher range increment than the composite long bow.
Heavy crossbow is a simple weapon - 1d10 120ft 19-20 X2 50gp
Composite longbow is a martial weapon - 1d8 110ft 20 x3 100gp
The greatbow could be exotic - 1d8 130ft 20 x3 150gp
But keep the standing only firing penalty and no rapid reload. Plus the fact it will be nearly twice the character's height if you have to rest it on the ground to fire it. Making it really impractical to keep on your person while trying to do anything else.
It's size alone is a hindrance in and of itself.
I don't see the point in saying a weapon can't be better than X. A heavy crossbow does more damage and has a higher range increment than the composite long bow.
Heavy crossbow is a simple weapon - 1d10 120ft 19-20 X2 50gp
Composite longbow is a martial weapon - 1d8 110ft 20 x3 100gp
The greatbow could be exotic - 1d8 130ft 20 x3 150gpBut keep the standing only firing penalty and no rapid reload. Plus the fact it will be nearly twice the character's height if you have to rest it on the ground to fire it. Making it really impractical to keep on your person while trying to do anything else.
It's size alone is a hindrance in and of itself.
Once you allow a weapon like this, players can be really creative with dealing with "inconveniences". Then you'll get players who buy Large Greatbow arrows and up the damage further with Enlarge Person.
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I don't see the point in saying a weapon can't be better than X. A heavy crossbow does more damage and has a higher range increment than the composite long bow.
Heavy crossbow is a simple weapon - 1d10 120ft 19-20 X2 50gp
Composite longbow is a martial weapon - 1d8 110ft 20 x3 100gp
The greatbow could be exotic - 1d8 130ft 20 x3 150gp
The thing is though is that a Heavy Crossbow needs an extra feat to use (Rapid Reload) and even then can't be used to full-attack since it still needs a move action to reload. It's really not any better than the Composite Longbow. I would argue it's actually much worse. Burning a feat as well as not being able to full-attack are much greater drawbacks than the bonuses of a tiny bit of added damage (which doesn't really even exist considering strength enhancements) and a little extra range give you. That means that a Composite Longbow really is right there at the top of ranged weaponry which means that purposefully designing something that's outright better than it in nearly all categories should be done very warily. Hence the drawbacks and other stipulations I've been trying to place on the Greatbow so it doesn't become the obvious choice that every archer should use.
I was thinking of making the Greatbow Exotic with a Range of somewhere around 100.
So with stats like: Exotic, 1d10, 100ft, 20x3, having to mount it and it requiring a minimum of a +2 strength rating, does that give us enough play to get us some Vital Strike love? Or should I just go Martial with the above stats and forget about Vital Strike stuff?
I was thinking of making the Greatbow Exotic with a Range of somewhere around 100.
So with stats like: Exotic, 1d10, 100ft, 20x3, having to mount it and it requiring a minimum of a +2 strength rating, does that give us enough play to get us some Vital Strike love? Or should I just go Martial with the above stats and forget about Vital Strike stuff?
I'd just make it a martial weapon and forget about Vital Strike. I think N. Jolly was under the impression that you couldn't full-attack with the bow or was suggesting you make it a weapon that can't be full-attacked to buff its damage in order to make it a good Vital Strike weapon.
In either case, a special effect that occurs on a Vital Strike should be a feat or class ability, not an innate feature of the bow.