Need Help With a Combat Rogue Build.


Advice


So, I'm not super new to Pathfinder, played a few campaigns, but could use some help with this, as though I'm not new to Pathfinder, optimization isn't something I've dealt with as much. (My local area is generally very casual)

Was trying to build the basic TWF skirmisher style rogue, through multi-classing from unchained rogue (for the free weapon finesse and dex-to-damage with any 1 weapon at 3rd, uncanny dodge and evasion) into probably slayer, then Shadowdancer for hide in plain sight. Swashbuckler also fits the character theme of a charisma heavy rogue outside of combat, and some of the 1st level abilities they get seem like they could be very helpful, but the weapon finesse wouldn't stack, and I'd lose out some sneak attack, so not sure if it's worth even the 1 lvl dip. Would love to find an archetype that would help this build out for the rogue that trades out trapfinding, since I think out of 3 DM's here I've seen a trap twice.

Would definetely get a mithral breastplate as soon as possible since so many of the class abilities of pretty much everything but slayer say you must be in light armor, and as far as I can tell, that's the best armor I can get without suffering those penalties.

Some quick info, 20 pt buy, no 3pp, trying to get the character concept basically up and running no later than 6th lvl or so, and race is Human, just for simplicity. I can re-work it to fit any race if the DM allows them.

A quick rules question too, uncanny dodge states that if you already have it, you get the improved version, whereas it does not appear that Evasion has the same rule, is this deliberate or just not on the SRD?

Sovereign Court

Multiclassing that much is generally a bad idea, and Shadowdancer is pretty weak.

I'd just go either Urogue or Slayer depending upon what type of build you want. Urogue for a Dex build and more skills, plus Major Magic is awesome. (I like Shield for the +4 AC, but there are other good choices.) Slayer is more of a brawler with some roguishness thrown in.

As to being a skirmisher - go Scout archetype. You could trade out trapfinding for the Knife Master archetype to get your SA up to d8s. Take the River Rat trait & the Pharasma feat to boost your daggers.

Your other trait should be Armor Expert so that you can wear a mithril breastplate without proficiency. (technically you'll take a penalty equal to its armor check penalty... of -0)

And you are correct - getting Evasion twice doesn't get you Improved Evasion.


Guess the Multi-classing is the remnant of 3.5 on me. And that's already super helpful, I didn't know about that trait or the Pharasma feat thing. So, double dagger TWF can actually be good. Cool.


What do you want from shadowdancer?


Hide in Plain sight mostly.

Sovereign Court

Thanks, and Have Fun wrote:
Guess the Multi-classing is the remnant of 3.5 on me.

Yeah - between the Favored Class Bonus, classes being much less top heavy (good mid-high level abilities), and prestige classes being generally weak - Pathfinder definitely shifted away from the heavy multi-classing of 3.5.

I'm with you though - I remember that my last 3.5 character ended up with 5+ classes including multiple prestige classes.


Hmm... Is the assassin prestige class also bad? Kinda hard to tell, 3/4 bab is meh, but SA progression is good, death attack is sometimes amazing, and it also picks up Hide in Plain Sight, though not till 8th level where it'll only really matter against humanoids, since everything seems to be immune to sneak attack, have truesight/extra-ordinary perception at that point.


If you're considering a multi-class character, an Unchained Barbarian actually works very well with an Unchained Rogue. The new rage feature just has a flat bonus to-hit and to damage which will work with your dex-based attacks. The class will also let you have a bit more "beef" so that you can be more combat-focused.

Sovereign Court

Thanks, and Have Fun wrote:
since everything seems to be immune to sneak attack,

One thing you may have not noticed since the 3.5 switch - not much is immune to SA in Pathfinder. It now works against undead & constructs. About the only thing immune are elementals.

Though you're right about having Truesight etc. You might consider going the Improved Feint route, eventually getting Two Weapon Feint or using Moonlight Stalker Feint with smoke pellets. (amusingly enough - Truesight doesn't get to ignore smoke)

But you're right - Assassin is pretty weak. Plus, you couldn't reasonably keep the Pharasma feat while being evil.


She's true neutral right? Neutral Evil is only 1 step-away, so not to far off. But looks like hellcat stealth for early game and then swap it for feinting later, and going 3 unchained rogue/slayer is going to be the best. Do daggers, Knife Master/Scout Rogue, pick up trait and feat, and be stabbing things in no time.

And yeah, looks like feinting is the way to go for late-game sneak attack damage. And I had noticed the lessened number of things immune outright, but so many things have ridiculous perception bonuses from either skills or extra senses that it makes actually sneaking really hard. Part of the reason I want to build this character is one of my previous ones was a slayer/shadowdancer. At around lvl 7, it was great, by the end of the campaign at lvl 12, I was basically useless. So wanted to build something a little more optimized. (partially my fault, since I went split down TWF and Bow, not a good thing to do.)

Liberty's Edge

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Thanks, and Have Fun wrote:
since everything seems to be immune to sneak attack,

One thing you may have not noticed since the 3.5 switch - not much is immune to SA in Pathfinder. It now works against undead & constructs. About the only thing immune are elementals.

Though you're right about having Truesight etc. You might consider going the Improved Feint route, eventually getting Two Weapon Feint or using Moonlight Stalker Feint with smoke pellets. (amusingly enough - Truesight doesn't get to ignore smoke)

But you're right - Assassin is pretty weak. Plus, you couldn't reasonably keep the Pharasma feat while being evil.

When looking at ways for an Unchained Rogue to get a sneak attack on their own, I would recommend Canny Tumble for a single attack, combined with Circling Mongoose for a full-attack sneak attack on your own :)


The biggest issue I see is that you want a highly mobile rogue but you also want two weapon fighting.

Using twf to the fullest means standing still and full attacking. You need a plan for working around this or you are highly likely to find your concept to be highly frustrated.

Sovereign Court

Abraham spalding wrote:

The biggest issue I see is that you want a highly mobile rogue but you also want two weapon fighting.

Using twf to the fullest means standing still and full attacking. You need a plan for working around this or you are highly likely to find your concept to be highly frustrated.

Eventually a Kitsune can get pounce. When combined with the Scout archetype it can be pretty effective and mobile.

But really, there's a limit to how mobile you can be in Pathfinder.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks, and Have Fun wrote:
Hide in Plain sight mostly.

You can get that at 10th with the 'Stalker Talent' Advanced Rogue Talent from Ultimate Intrigue, using it to grab the 'Hide In Plain Sight' Vigilante Talent, which is mechanically identical to the Shadowdancer ability.

Just for the record.

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